Driving students into science is a fool's errand
nature.com
nature.com
At the outset, he identifies three broad categories of funding: (1) luring young people into STEM careers; (2) promoting science and technology at graduate schools; and (3) raising standards of science education. But the rest of his argument lumps these all together as if all the spending is for category #1, "luring".
For example, he points out that "no such government-backed programmes exist to pull children into being lawyers or accountants." And his broad argument, as expressed in the subheading, is that the funding biases the system to producing more scientists and technologists than it needs: "If programmes to bolster STEM education are effective, they distort the labour market..."
Only by ignoring the distinction between category #1, "luring", and category #3, "raising standards", can he complain that businesses who want better-educated scientists, if they really meant it, would just pony up and "pay and train newly graduated scientists and engineers properly." Either he thinks that the technical skills businesses want can be achieved by a quick training session after a broad general education, or else he thinks that raising the salaries of engineers will send a market signal to grade-schoolers that they ought to be more interested in STEM education. The problem of poor preparation never seems to enter his head. If all the accounting firms in the country were complaining that few recent college grads can add a column of numbers, and the government responded by trying to improve arithmetic education, would Macilwain complain about the money spent "luring children into accounting"?
In short, he might have an argument. But until he grounds it in specifics, he's just hand-waving with the broad idea that trying to improve STEM education distorts the market. This is obvious tripe, because the same broad argument could be applied to education in general: "If programs to bolster education are effective, they distort the market for educated workers. If they aren't, they're a waste of money. Besides, if businesses really wanted educated workers, they would pay and train new hires properly."
At the graduate level, this is backed by a RAND study.
http://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP241.html
The authors of the study do address the possibility that poor preparation is the cause - but they conclude that poor pay and job prospects relative to other options available to highly educated Americans is the main driver of low interest in science and engineering.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/science/2009-07-08-scien...
"Other approaches such as making K-12 science and math courses more interesting and pushing for more qualified math and science teachers "may have merit in their own right," researchers said, "but we think they pale in importance to the earnings and attractiveness of S&E careers as major determinants of the supply of U.S.-born students to S&E."
So the real question is - if the objective research suggests that there is no shortage of scientists and that the American allergy to these fields is rational and market driven, why launch a PR campaign to get young Americans to enter it?
There are reasons - many people believe that scientists and engineers create more wealth than other comparably or better paid professions. So society as a whole has a stronger interest in having more engineers than we'd normally get through the normal, individual response to market signals (I'm assuming an individual doesn't really care if his income contributes or detracts to the general wealth as long as it is obtained legally - some people clearly do care as a personal matter). In this case, it might make sense to try to lure some young people in. Rather than hoping to trick them, though, it might be better to actually make it worth their while - perhaps by covering tuition so that all engineers graduate debt-free. Another possibility could be giving a tax break to people in these fields.
The Onion said it best... "Study finds 99% of commuters favor public transportation for others." Seems everyone other than scientists is keen on getting other people to study science. Barak Obama, a lawyer, certainly seems to think science is a fantastic career for others.
Want to make science attractive and more effective? Cut grad student enrollments in half and triple grad student pay so that it is comparable to what other STEM grads make in the workforce; in this case, choosing science would not be a major financial mistake, even for the masses who never get a faculty job. Professors would have fewer students, enabling better mentorship and improved job outlook for each graduate. Increase pay for professors so that they make money comparable to other highly educated professionals. Endow faculty chairs at major universities and set a mandatory faculty retirement age so that deadwood profs aren't hogging positions needed by rising stars. Mandate open publishing.
These changes could be implemented easily if legislatures and funding agencies wanted them, but nobody seems to want that. If the government wants people in science, they should spend money making it a better career, not spend money to slap a coat of marking gloss on a relatively bleak situation.
Perhaps I'm just irretrievably biased, but STEM seems, as well as being an enormously vast field it seems lazy to lump together, to be the engine of human advancement and economic growth.
If student A, an engineering student, is put in competition with student B, who could have been a good lawyer but chose a Maths degree, and student C, who had to choose between music and physics but chose physics at university, then A's wages might end up slightly lower but we are all likely to end up better off.
But it's not just that I am a science-biased technocrat - I don't especially want to drive our future judges and music professors into engineering careers. I think it more likely that technical education is just under-taken-up at all levels compared to what would most benefit society, and people who could perfectly well cope with technical careers end up taking jobs in the service sector that provide little training.
To take a shortage of technically-trained people, paint that as a benefit for the wages of the currently qualified, and argue to maintain the status quo on that basis is just short-sighted nonsense.
Sarcasm aside, just because it's good for business doesn't mean that it's bad for you.
Given that it was published on nature.com, best known as the publisher of one of the top science journals in the world, I would bet that the intended purpose is to stimulate discussion, not to explicitly endorse this view as written.
* Science, at least when I went through high school was Not Cool. It was for "nerds", something that you didn't really want to be labeled. I don't know if it's still that way in the US, but counteracting that effect might not be a bad idea.
* He talks about flooding the market. I just don't see that as likely to happen, and I don't necessarily see STEM stuff as a "lump of labor" with a fixed amount of work to go around, either. These are people creating and discovering new things!
Other signs of market flooding are high rates of fraud, and deception, although there are no good metrics for that, really.
Grad school: 24k -> 26k over 6 years, at a highly-ranked institution. (MIT, my only other offer, offered me a measly 18k, I declined for obvious reasons).
1st postdoc: 30k for 1 year. I left, because my project was completed. This turned out to be a good choice, because my boss quit six months later (and threw the other postdoc under the bus - he was lazy).
Lab tech job: 35k. This was a job that was supposed to go to an entry level post-baccalaureate. I got it within 14 days of moving to San Diego, took it, because I knew the job market was rough. It's worth noting that I took a job that was a demotion, in terms of credentials, but got a pay raise.
2nd postdoc: An "internal promotion" from the previous, 40k.
More recently, I applied for a job in industry with these guys (http://www.genomatica.com/) and actually got a job offer that I had to decline because they wanted me to start immediately, and I (perhaps stupidly) felt I had an obligation to finish my project where I work now. OTOH, I seem to have enough freedom to try to do my own thing.
So, yes there are prospects in industry. One caveat is that although my publication record is not terribly impressive by the conventional "impact factor metric" (I personally like that I've made innovations in three wildly different aspects of biology - difficult protein expression, small molecule drug development, and bioorganometallic chemistry), I have an extremely good academic pedigree, that gets my foot in the door to interviews and lets me at least try to justify my existence based on the merit that I value and the skillset that I've developed. Inasmuch as I hate that the title is being devalued, I feel sorry for PhDs that have their degrees rubber-stamped, because it's gotta be really tough for them.
MIT in general is worth more than the 6k more you're getting from Scripps.
Lab techs are offered higher pay because the prospects for promotion are limited at best, they compensate for that with slightly higher pay. As a post-doc you aren't expected to keep that job forever, whereas lab techs do so for decades.
You seem really disgruntled about the current system. Academia isn't easy, considering the limited funding available, it is in national interest to only have the best doing research and your CV isn't exactly super competitive.
Edit: The vast majority of younger faculty I've worked with (i.e. Assistant Professors with < 5 years of experience at the University of Toronto only did post docs for 4-6 years in total. Not the 8-12 you seem to imply, and this is in biological and medical sciences.
And "The vast majority of younger faculty I've worked with". Sounds like selection bias. Talk to the postdocs and see how long they've been around.
>>> "* Science, at least when I went through high school was Not Cool. It was for "nerds", something that you didn't really want to be labeled. I don't know if it's still that way in the US, but counteracting that effect might not be a bad idea."
I've got to be honest... what High Schools did you guys go to?? I had friends on the football team who were into science. I had friends who didn't care about sports and were into writing. I had friends who had letter jackets, I had friends who rode motorcycles.
I was into computers and nobody cared. I first cut my teeth with CSS helping out with the website for our school newspaper. I first learned to program by messing around and making silly ASCII racing games on my graphing calculator in BASIC. Everyone who cared just kind of thought it was neat, or didn't care and we talked about other things.
All this labeling of "nerd" and "jocks"... I really don't get it. There were many circles of friends to join. Or you could be a loner and that's fine too. Looking back, I'm not even sure what label I would have been given (never considered myself a nerd, I was too poor of a student :p)
Did I miss something, or does everyone else just get caught up in labeling waaayyy too much?
That's just not the reality I experienced, and I never saw the ecosystem through that prism. shrugs
When you stop trying to live up to that pathetic Jargon File description of a geek, late nights with techno blasting and Chinese takeout, you can get out and realize that there's a bigger world out there. You join the football team and discover that the quarterback really loves watching Star Trek, rather than dismissing him as a "dumb jock" because he has a number on his shirt.
I suspect most people remember me as being really into bicycle racing more than school, so I don't suppose I was seen as the nerdiest of the nerdy, and had friends, girlfriends, and so on. Also, being in a college town probably meant more of a focus on education.
CSS? Definitely a different time! This came out the year I graduated from high school: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/draft-ietf-iiir-html-01.txt
In some rural communities football and ROTC is glorified and science is for the nerds. In other parts of the country it is different.
> Or you could be a loner and that's fine too.
Or you got picked on, beaten and made fun of and adults (who have also mostly bought into the "sports are God" mentality) didn't really care to do much about it.
Now I am talking like I had extensive experience with this, but in reality I went to one American High School for one year only, otherwise I went to one in Eastern Europe.
I would say overall the East European one was poor, didn't have any extra curricular activities _but_ science, math and English (foreign language) was top notch. Just to compare, math material I studies in 9th grade back home was taught to seniors in 12th grade in US. It was nice tutoring them math. And I also got a taste of the sharp boundaries of cliques and social groups in US High Schools. These are the "band" people, they hang out together, these people smoke pot, they hang out together, these are the nerds they talk about Start Trek and hang out together and I had to pick one. I picked the nerds, and it was strange how many things revolved around "whom do you hang out with". I definitely saw that as a negative side.
People didn't get beaten, the rare fights stemmed from personal conflicts rather than "NERRRRRRDS!". Nobody was really subjected to harassment that I ever saw.
Our school was something like 75% Hispanic and 25% white. The white kids were maybe 50% Mormon, which may have had some effect on behavior.
You know who cared more about cliques than anyone else? The try-hard "rebels" who obsessed over "jocks" and "preps". I socialized with everyone, and I think that was closer to the norm. I ate lunch at the band room with the band kids (many of whom were in cross country with me), I shot the shit in class with the stoner kids (who were also band kids and athletes), I went to game night with the Mormon kids (who were in band and sports).
I think this whole "nerd" obsession with "nerds" vs. "jocks", the image of getting stuffed in lockers or beat up, I think it's seated in a past that's been gone for a while.
I'm sorry you thought you had to pick one group.
Maybe that is how it should be, but I am inclined to think that STEM-type clubs should be glorified and looked up to.
I agree. Did you go to a small high school?
I suspect most of this labeling happens in large high schools. When a grade has more than 150 or so students[1], it becomes impossible for them to all interact with each other. They get divided up into different classrooms, take different classes, each lunch at staggered times, and form small, non-overlapping cliques. At least, that's the impression I've gotten from talking to people about it.
My high school was small and homogeneous: everyone knew each other, took many of the same classes, had the same teachers, etc. So the world described in pg's Nerds essay[2] is pretty foreign to me.
In the UK, the government is at the point of giving away science degrees just so that there are enough science teachers for primary and secondary school students, and as a computer science student, I have managed to get a paid internship every year of my degree, and last year turned down 4 internship offers, because there were so many companies looking for people with a computer science education.
Our STEM graduate rates are falling, and our need for STEM graduates is increasing.
On top of this, we don't just need people getting jobs in STEM subjects, we need a population who have a broad knowledge of, and respect for, scientific understanding. If children aren't taught science to an adequate level then the country, and the world, suffers for it.
The reason you don't push students into being lawyers is because there are more law students graduating than there are open jobs for them.
Any market, STEM or not, where there is a lack of unqualified workers and more job opportunities than graduates should have programs that encourage students to consider pursuing those careers.
I know plenty of people who started college in engineering or computer science knowing there's good paying job opportunities in those fields. But a big chunk of those people drop out once they start taking the more difficult courses.
Retention is just as important as getting people into STEM in the first place but it's hard to retain students who aren't adequately prepared for the challenge.
To a very large amount of people, college is "just that place you go after highschool but before becoming an adult". I like to think that most of those people wise up or drop out pretty quick, but it seems pretty undeniable that a lot of people at least start the process without the appropriate amount of consideration.
If you want to do a quick ad-hoc study of a population with massive selection bias, just find the daily "I was told a college degree would get me a job. I was lied to." post on reddit, inquire if they researched the job market before picking their major, and watch the "I picked my major for person satisfaction! give me a job!" replies and downvotes roll in.
...actually don't do this. It is very frustrating.
I think fewer students check actual job prospects less frequently than you might expect. Rather, they go with their gut or influence by people close to them (teachers, family members, etc...) who are probably just going from the gut anyway.
Not many, but most have a decent sense of how dropout graphs relate to ultimate income, and have a sense that engineers make a lot and comm majors less.
The other issue is one I've written about before, but universities have basically begun to practice market segmentation but with academic ability: people who want a really rigorous university experience can find one in hard science, engineering, philosophy, and some humanities departments, and people who just want a degree can find one in comm, sociology, many business schools, and a few other places.
Back then, I made the choice of not pursuing computer science because I entered university soon after the dot-com bust. I came from a third-world country, and the general theme then was that there wasn't much of a future in software engineering, that unemployment rates amongst programmers were horrendous. Which was true, back in 2005.
Wound up getting a different engineering degree. Things didn't turn out too bad, but in hindsight, I really wished I did go for that CS degree.
Also most people I know who majored in so called un-marketable fields did so knowing full well what the job market looked like and did take that into account. They just came to the conclusion that studying what they wanted to study, rather than what was economically expedient, was more important to them. A few of them have even, through hard work and dedication, beaten the odds and managed to end up in a well paid dream job in their chosen field.
There aren't. That's the point.
It's pretty funny that the article mentioned this as evidence that students respond accurately to supply and demand when deciding what to major in. Law is seen as a lucrative, high-demand field because it was -- decades ago. The reality has changed dramatically since then, but public perception has not. And that's why we continue to have more law students graduating than there are jobs for them, despite the blatant irrationality of this.
STEM graduates (both undergrad and grad) wake up the day after graduation and start looking for a job. What do they find? Well, if they are smart (and, they probably are, because they just graduated with a STEM degree) and have one or two other skills outside the STEM degree, they find that there are people who are willing to pay them an incredible amount of money to do "not-science" and a middling amount of money to do "is-science." There are actually plenty of US-born STEM graduates created each year who leave their field to do something more lucrative.
Take a look as these statistics from the American Physical Society: http://www.aps.org/careers/statistics/index.cfm
Almost a third of people graduating with a Bachelor's in Physics work in some field that is unrelated to science, technology, math or engineering! In other words, by just paying market-clearing salaries, we could increase the number of physics graduates entering the workforce each year by a whopping 50%! That could happen tomorrow, not twenty years from now when today's kindergarteners finally get through the pipeline.
Pushing more students into a STEM track won't reduce the number of unfilled STEM positions: It will reduce the average salary of the STEM graduates who leave for other fields. With enough pushing, you might, maybe, one day push the salary low enough that graduates remain in STEM. Or, you could just increase the salary of those unfilled STEM positions.
My bet is that it is not treated appropriately by the teachers. My grade school teachers made science boring, monotonous and repetitive. It wasn't interesting at all. The crazy thing is that it is really cool... So much of it has a ton in common with a fun action movie: explosions and sex.
Frame it in terms that make sense and is interesting to students rather than just reading chapter 5 and the interest in STEM fields will naturally increase.
Would you rather have a society full of too many engineers or that of too many lawyers?
1. Labor finitism: there's a fairly fixed amount of labor that society will pay money for, and us proles are doomed to compete against each other for it, in what ultimately becomes a race to the bottom.
2. Labor progressivism: technical and scientific progress will free up resources for more interesting and higher-yield work, and make everyone richer. To quote Keynes, the rising tide will lift all boats.
In a labor-finitist world, the worker's job is to extract as much payment out of capital-holders (for as little work) as possible. The labor-finitist world is almost Malthusian in its ruthless cruelty. In a labor-progressivist world, it's actually good to do the grunt work quickly, so you can graduate to more interesting stuff.
Of course, reality is somewhere between these two extremes. In the very short term, it's labor finitist: people have to formally "create" jobs. In the long term, it's labor progressivist; the labor pool does expand, with its rate being an open question. The open question pertains to the 0.1-20 years range over which we actually make career decisions. It's like Efficient Market Hypothesis, whose truth comes down to "what time frame?" (Over very-short or very-long timeframes, EMH is demonstrably not true for well-known reasons. Over typical timeframes, it is.)
If labor finitism is true, then we want to drive young people far away from whatever we do. Given that the software industry is already a horrible place to work, just being honest about the low autonomy and shitty legacy code and arrogance of non-technical management-- also, the fact that, even though our salaries might look good on paper, we make about 1/5 of what we should given the bullshit we have to put up with-- ought to be enough. We just need to counteract the Googley propaganda about this career involving actual autonomy and respect.
If labor progressivism is true, then since science and technology are the driving forces of that progress, we want as many people in those industries as have the talent, because that will bring us out of scarcity faster.
It's unclear which is the case, though. Labor progressivism is true in the underlying "real world", but this society is littered with legacy power relationships that, I'm afraid, make labor finitism a lot more accurate. Just look at the terrorist attack that has been inflicted on the academic job market for the past 25 years if you don't believe that.
You say things like this a lot. I'm willing to accept that I may be naive, but do you think that those of us who have had primarily positive experiences (and I know a few, not only me) just incredibly lucky?
I've been a programmer for 13 years and have worked at failing startups, moderately successful startups and big companies. I've mostly coded but have also managed small groups. There's some amount of bullshit in every job, I think, but I haven't found it to be disproportionate compared to my friends in other industries.
I enjoy programming and solving hard problems, but I hate this industry with a passion. I'm sick of the terrible legacy code, the bad decisions made by people dumber than a crocodile's fecal product, and the lack of respect and autonomy for the people doing the actual fucking work.
Even Google turned itself into a closed-allocation shitpile at some point. What a fucking disaster.
We've failed to make ourselves a real profession, and it seems like the norm is for us to suffer dearly for it. Most programmers live in an environment where they have minimal autonomy and don't even choose which projects they work on. It's fucking disgusting and if we had any collective self-respect, we'd demolish the assholes who built these horrible work environments.
Personally, I won't be happy until the people who instituted calibration scores and closed allocation at Google commit seppuku. They destroyed billions of dollars worth of economic value, they ruined the lives of hundreds to thousands of highly talented people, and it's the only decent thing for them to do after that.
At least 90% of the people at Google are really solid. Good people, great engineers. I have a dislike for the management, not the people or the products.
http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/tag/project-allocation/ (the Discomfort is Bad piece)
http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/tag/closed-allocation/ (the earlier Only Real Option piece)
There's also the more systematic Quora/Forbes piece: http://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2012/11/26/what-is-open-al...
Do you live in a major tech hub? Because here a lot of the jobs suck and we take the only gigs in town and most of us are the victims of the "two body problem" with more successful spouses anchoring us to undesirable areas.
If it isn't, then no amount of driving is going to help.