Why Being Smart Won't Get You Laid
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The answer is not to become to an asshole, but you should cultivate an air of being more like a leader of the pack. Note you do not have to actually be a leader of a group of guys to do this. It's just about sending the right signals to the female's animal mind.
Things you can do to give that impression are: be confident when approaching girls, do not be needy or give off signs of desperation, tease her, be interesting, give off a sense of bemused indifference, don't act like your trying too hard, do not be afraid to touch her on the arm or shoulder, flirt with her friends, etc. I learned this stuff through experience and friends, but there are sources on the internet that can greatly speed up the process. You can read the archives of Roissy's blog, but be warned, it's very not PC - http://roissy.wordpress.com/
A large proportion of American women have been raised with an unspoken and often subliminal belief that sex is filthy, painful and degrading. This association is formed at a young age and most women are not aware that they have it, but it leads them to become attracted to men who are boorish, stupid, and threatening, rather than the intelligent and decent guys. Often, they are actually completely incapable of being sexually attracted to men who don't threaten and degrade them on, at the least, a subconscious level. This is what's at hand in the case of "you're a nice guy, but I'm sorry, I'm just attracted to you. I really wish I was, but I'm not".
This doesn't describe the majority of women or relationships, but it does describe nearly all of the sexually "loud" women. It seems paradoxical, but promiscuous women almost always have this subconscious distaste for sex, while relatively chaste women often have only a trace of it.
I don't think we need an HN poll on this to disconfirm. The mindset of most men chasing sex seems to be based on the fact that it feels very good. Period. No nightmares needed.
I actually think men get some blame for the "girls falling for aholes" problem. I think too many quality men listened to their mothers and school teachers, who said the key is to be a nice guy. The assholes never listened, and learned on the street to win girls via strength. Thus only the assholes act strong and get the girl, while the nerds lose out. The solution is that the good men need to grow a backbone. Then women will be able to find men who they are both attracted to and are good partners.
If a woman has a preference for muscular men, or skinny hipsters, or even fat men, that's fine. We all have our physical preferences. And the fact that women want to date men with enough spine to have meaningful character is a good thing. However, women who are attracted to loud, boorish, and stupid badboys are utter garbage.
The attraction to badboys is not aesthetic; many badboys are out of shape and ugly. I think the appeal of the badboy is that it provides release from the pressure that is put on women to "marry up". It's not looked down upon for a man to marry a woman less ambitious and intelligent than he is, as long as she's good on her own merits (e.g. if he's a Wall Street quant with a 155 IQ, and she's in a lifestyle career and has a 130 IQ, that's fine, because she's still a smart woman who can hold her own in intelligent conversation). Women, however, are expected to marry men with at least the same level of earning potential and intelligence, because of a lingering concern with gender roles and the expectation that the man will be equal or dominant. This obviously places a lot of pressure on high-power women. The appeal of the badboy is that, although he's virtually never intelligent or ambitious, he's dominant on account of his sheer arrogance and narcissism, but at the same time worthless enough that he can be flippantly discarded. This enables the woman to enter a relationship where she takes a submissive role, but one that has an "off switch"; she can leave without pain, since it's unlikely that she'll form an emotional attachment to such a useless and defective man.
[*Edited for clarity @ 12:26]
The antonym to strong is weak, not nice. I think people often forget that girls, particularly sane and intelligent ones, do not reject the prototypical "nice guy" because he is nice but because he is a pushover. That is, weak. You can be strong and nice. In fact, I think the strongest ones usually are "nice" or considerate because they can afford to, whereas at least where I'm moving, being an asshole or abrasive is a sign of weakness.
In my experience, girls do want first and foremost an alpha male, and being a nice guy on top of that makes it even better. It's just not a necessity so the jerks can succeed without that quality, whereas the nice guys can't succeed without "dominance."
I guess now we know what time_management's new nickname is...
I'm sure you have friends who you would consider incredibly nice, but very shy, guys who never could get a girlfriend, and plenty of jerky, but confident, guys who you wonder why girls would date. Confident guys, even when not nice, just seem to win out over really nice, but not at all confident, guys. Guys with both win out over both. Whether or not it's a bad thing is your call.
(I'm not arguing guys are above their primitive desires: not by any means, it's just not the focus of this discussion.)
That being said, lot of the time most of the guys who complain that they can't get a girlfriend because they're "a nice guy" are generally just inexperienced and going after women who are out of their league. If they lowered their expectations -- and actually made an effort to find out what they really are looking for (rather than drive themselves insane over women they saw as "perfect") -- they wouldn't have had that complaint.
Roissy should come with a warning label, though. He is the dark side. A Nietzsche-an amoral creature. His front page is remarkably tame at the moment, for him.
That's the key point - alpha characteristics/interactions trump everything else. Girls like alpha assholes despite them being assholes, not the other way 'round.
1. A number of people in the US find sex to be degrading and harmful, at least on a subconscious level, while most reasonable people would only apply those epithets to a small subset of sexual activity.
2. People who harbor unhealthy beliefs (such as those described in 1) have a tendency to behave in suboptimal ways according to those beliefs, often with results that confirm them. An example of this is the misogynist/misandrist; people who believe that all members of the opposite sex tend to repel quality partners and have a very limited range of experience, and those negative experiences reinforce their beliefs.
3. Men who fit into the stereotypical "alpha" category strive to humiliate and damage women; thus, sex with them is, in fact, harmful and degrading.
4. Ergo, according to (2), women brought up with the attitude described in (1) are likely to be sexually attracted to the sorts of men described in (3).
I don't see anything vague here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_male
"In social animals, the alpha is the individual in the community whom the others follow. Where one male and one female fulfill this role, they are referred to as the alpha pair"
Girls want to be part of an alpha pair, it's as simple as that. I think you are projecting your own warped ideas about sex ("humiliation") onto this. But hey, whatever floats your boat, we're all grownups here.
Healthy women don't want to be anywhere around those sorts of men, who tend to be abusive husbands and terrible fathers. However, a certain class of psychologically damaged woman does tend to find that type of man sexually attractive.
Will have sex with them gladly, though, and tell the nice guy the kid's his.
Heh, I doubt this phenomenon is endemic to the U.S.
No one is accusing anything. You don't see the red sign and "accuse" it of being a stop sign. You realize immediately that it is a stop sign (pattern recognition) and behave accordingly. Behaving accordingly with respect to such women is avoiding them entirely.
If what you're calling an "alpha male" is a domineering asshole, I actually agree with you 100%. There are definitely dysfunctional women who like that kind of guy and I've learned to steer clear.
If we're talking about "alpha male" in the evolutionary psychology sense (i.e. conveying confidence, virility, and leadership), though, I think you're incorrect to say that women who look for those traits in a partner are just looking to be degraded.
If you see that mentality in most of the women you meet, then you're missing something about them or about the men they like. Or you're hanging out in strip clubs.
Go into it with the right attitude and you will have fun. Don't fall into the trap that some men do and think "ooh, such-and-such a magazine says salsa classes will get me laid", cause on their own they won't. Girls there can spot the guys who go there with one intention from miles off and won't dance with them. Go there with the intention to have a bit of a giggle, meet a few new people, make a bit of a tit of yourself on occasion (something we ALL need!) and learn some sexy moves while you're at it and the world is your oyster.
(Sorry for the disjointed response, I'm rushing out of the door! Will probably come back and write more later.)
You might go just to meet people or just because you've always wanted to learn how to dance.
Salsa dancing is a meritocracy. Women want to dance with men who can lead well to the music. Why wouldn't they?
To be honest, if you have the hacker mindset, the danger of taking on Salsa dancing, is it will become a pursuit and a hobby. You might get addicted. I've been for over 2 years. You might go to your first class and flail but then you will see real dancers dance and be sucked in (I want to do that).
The hacker mindset of 'how can I figure this out/what is the hack to dancing' might hook you. Yes, there are tricks to become a better dancer faster (number one - start asking women to dance when the song is more than half-over as a beginner - so you don't run out of moves). The whole idea of going from canned set routines to dancing to the music is a bit of difficult hack that I'm still working on (but making progress). The hack for that I think is understand the structure of the song - (real-time Fourier analysis of a set of eight measures of 8-beats each..with your feet)
It is much harder for guys to learn Salsa dancing because they have to lead (see Salsa hell link below). The look of a woman with the most bored look in her eye because you don't know what you're doing while the music is on is something you will experience many times. Can't simulate social dancing. Classes are good/bad because the woman knows the pattern exactly (simulates being a good lead w/o being one)
At some point, if you get addicted, it will stop being about meeting people and joining a community of people who love music and dancing. A community where you can escape the real world 8 beats at a time. As addictions go, I think it is a pretty good one to have. As the "Magic of Time" article below illustrates, if you stick with it and continue dancing/practicing/going to classes, you will become competent (many guys will quit after several classes or two months but in two years' time, just by continuing trial and error, you start getting better by default).
If you choose to take on Salsa, good luck - it's not about you, it's about her, you, and the music.
"The Unlikely Salsero - Magic of Time: Last One Standing"
http://www.unlikelysalsero.com/2007/08/magic-of-time-last-on...
"Addicted2Salsa - What is salsa hell for guys" http://addicted2salsa.com/2007/08/12/the-famous-salsa-hell-d...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_Hop_today
I started doing it 6 years ago. I've been stuck doing it ever since, because of my hacker mindset, but also because of the social scene. Imho, Swing is actually much better for hackers... plenty of women, it's full of other hackers, everyone's a bit geeky, and many folks are hyper-creative and artsy. It's also easy to learn but hard to master... lots of challenge when you get really into it.
I must note that the vast majority of people have many misconceptions about swing dancing. What you saw in the fad bears little resemblance to what's done today. No one really plays Cherry Poppin Daddies or other similar pseudo-swing punk music. Lots of swing DJs are true music geeks, and play swing, soul, blues, and R&B at dances. Real swing dancing is much more about having feeling and jazz musicality than it is about acrobatics. Think of it as tap dancing with a partner. The acrobatics are definitely still around, but are basically restricted to performance. Yes, Swing is not as seductive as Salsa, but the emotion is definitely there.
Great example of what good swing looks like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3rlvBQ7nUE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u0YWCY0sZI
In the Bay Area, check out: http://920special.com/ http://www.redwoodcityswing.com/
In Boston, check out: http://www.havetodance.com/calendar.html
In NYC, check out: http://www.yehoodi.com/frimfram/
There's also a very different family of dance in the swing umbrella, West Coast Swing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_coast_swing
Being a smart woman gives you totally different dating prospects than being a smart guy (and not just the obvious). Seriously.
It also gives you reasons to turn off the opposite sex that don't seem to be mentioned in the article - for example a lot of women play it dumb for fear of intimidating the guy they're flirting with. I've even caught myself doing it, which is saying a lot - I wear my IQ and education like a suit of armour most of the time.
It's interesting how smart people build up various defenses to keep people at bay -- including hyper-competitiveness.
I remind my wife that you're supposed to let the boys win once in a while when we play cards, and we both get a laugh. She is merciless on my ego.
But there's something to be said for fitting in, going with the flow, taking things as they happen. That's not to say to act dumb, just being in the moment at a rock concert probably isn't going to elicit Shakespearean quotes. There's a fine line between being smart and acting smart. Appearing smart is not necessarily a desirably externalized attribute in all social situations.
Ironically enough, this doesn't seem like a very intelligent strategy. I definitely get it, but it doesn't seem like a very wise approach in the long-term. What kind of partner would you end up with by hiding one of your most prized qualities?
2. If you are bent on being a "player", and you are smart (truly smart, not just smart as in able to program smart), then you can probably learn how to do it. Human beings are not that complicated.
I expect few people experience it though. Contributing factors include accumulated skill, anatomical compatibility, mindset, mood, physical fitness, etc. It's an outlier.
As sexuality today is still very much mostly a powerful unconscious drive, it is harder for most females to say "yes" than "no," because saying yes is a conscious decision and the female instead finds it easier to remain passive to her powerful unconscious side around these aholes, and which is why she's even interested in either in the first place.
Aholes can muscle in on the nice guy, and we have not reached the tipping point for many females to take better control of their sexuality.
In the end you can be a nice guy, but when the ahole comes along, be prepared. Don't leave it up to her to say yes.
1. As you say, it's easier and less risky for the woman to remain passive and not make the conscious decision to say yes to the 'nice' guy who's waiting for her.
2. There is a lot of social pressure on females to not be a 'slut'. This is becoming less than it used to be but is also subtle and ingrained into society. By remaining passive and letting the man chase, she avoids the possibility of seeming promiscuous.
3. Some of the other comments are saying this as well: the theory that women have evolved to be attracted to a leader. Leadership, strength and confidence are demonstrated by a guy who will go out of his way to pursue a woman, even despite her initial coquettishness and playing hard to get. By doing this he shows that he's a confident man who has balls and is not afraid to get what he wants - themselves apparently attractive qualities in a bloke.
There's another factor at work to, 'consent.' A nice guy wants the interaction to be consensual, and it should be, but in a way she doesn't because as you say there's a stigma to it, but then again if she never gives consent, she'll not only end up attracting the aholes and be quietly looking for them to satiate her 'guilty pleasures', but also on the downside she'll lock herself out of the nice guys because giving consent will be too painful, and when she does, he may be ultimately turned off.
In the end, she'll marry a somewhat inexperienced nice bloke to raise the kids after being used and abused by the aholes, and she may cheat on him if her issues are unresolved.
Another tip to ride the depression out: even though you want to call the new babe straight away, don't, no matter how excited you are, wait until the excitement wears off to the point you're almost depressed again, so to speak, then call. If she rejects you (she probably won't), it won't matter, you've found your center.
First off you can have your cake and eat it. You don't actually need to cease being anything to get laid you just have to look harder. Honesetly, it is just that easy, somewhere out there is a woman/man/transgender looking for someone just like you. Hell, there are probably 10 people like that in every country.
Second, the author takes a very macho outlook on dating. You don't have to do that. People are quite varied. Some like X, some prefer Y and some really love Q. His entire 'be the (wo)man' bit just smacks of heterocentricism and ignorance. Some people like the same. If that is you I encourage you to pursue that because you will be far, far happier than if you repress who you really are.
Third. This point is just my advice. Don't deride people or look down on them. You will find love in peculiar places if only you look. So you're smart. Big deal. Don't dismiss that girl who left school before senior or the guy who never went to college. There are different forms of intelligence and you can find intelligent people who are not in the mold of the traditionally smart, educated and successful.
And lastly, get out of the house/town/country. You will never find anyone, not even for a date if you don't get away from your personal comfort zone. I'm not dismissing those who only want to meet people through friends only that you must be truly lucky to find love that way. It is always best to expand yourself and head to the horizon of the known.
Then let your users screen on the stuff that they use as a proxy for smart. We all have different definitions for smart; just try to accommodate as many of them as possible. Women complain all the time about having to act dumber to find a man because the dumb men are the ones who ask them out.
Plus there is always Mensa and other high-iq societies. People have said that Mensa has just turned into a club to find people to date. Here's Kathleen O's experience with using Mensa for dating:http://www.yelp.com/topic/chicago-a-speed-dating-service-lik...
This has been done. (http://www.intelligentpeople.com) They seem to use the same test for every applicant (a dusty scan of the famous Raven's Progressive Matrices.) So the system is easy to game, if you so wished.
OTOH, being smart at getting yourself laid will almost certainly get you laid.
I was expecting women will appreciate that I'm so humble etc. It turns out they just thought I'm really boring, if I say so myself. So this is lesson number one - don't assume women will appreciate that you are humble.
Still - my wife somewhat endured my "I'm so humble and nice etc" talk, and we're married now, so there is a chance to everybody :)
So - lesson number 2 is - when you meet right kind of person at right moment in life, it is really difficult to screw things up. So be yourself and don't worry - your time will come.
Just remember to be open to new people and new experiences.
PS when you are shy it helps a lot when you think about everything you do in terms of "what would be the worst outcome of this if I screw up?" It is often the case that the worst outcome is exactly the same that if you don't do anything. So expected value is higher than 0 :). For me it helped a lot.
Sounds like a quick trip to panic attack city.
It's simple: smile, make eye contact, show interest, ask questions. You will probably feel like an idiot. Repeat until confidence outweighs fear. If you're smart, use your brain for wit, not for showing off.
I haven't had a chance to test this, since I'm still ignoring the first 4 steps. But I have on occasion accidentally made certain friends develop a crush on me by offhandedly calling them pretty. So it seems to work fairly well.
It's erected on a false dichotomy: "given a choice between happy-go-lucky and picky-but-lonely, happy sounds like more fun."
I don't personally measure my completeness or incompleteness by my romantic status. My estimation of self-worth comes instead from my research, my projects, and my work. It's an arbitrary preference, much as it's arbitrary for some people to feel completed by a union with someone else.
I'm smart, I'm driven, and I'm incredibly picky when it comes to the people I socialize with. Life is short, and just like everyone else does I make personal value judgments as to how best spend what little time I have. And in the end I'm quite happy--and still single.
Go figure.
it seems to be somewhat faulty logic to use "but when i do x, y will be better", both in the realm of getting laid, enjoying life, etc.
why not act now instead?
(Details left blank as an excercise for the reader, BTW. ;-))
And if you are loaded and want to avoid gold diggers, nothing is stopping you from going 007 on it, rent an apartment, buy a beater, and pretend to be broke
If you go higher into luxury sport car territory... that's your own fault :)
Attracting gold-diggers can be fun if one sticks to pump & dump kind of debauchery. It might seem unscrupulous, but we're not discussing that. Worst-case scenario, one risks getting one of these gold-diggers pregnant... and be forced to see her again (or, preferably, her lawyer) in the future, which is never pleasant.
That is not a loser's game. I have more respect for the guy who is getting laid because he is rich, than the guy who was born handsome. The latter was born blessed, the former had to figure a way to become a good candidate for fornication.
Now, you could argue that if you're handsome, the woman loves your body, not you.
So I guess you really should have every negative quality possible, save your personality, if you want to truly "win." Except that you'll probably just totally lose.
Quote from George Foreman about longshoremen:
Mr. Foreman, who stared down financial collapse as an adult despite a troubled, impoverished childhood, said he knew real wealth when he saw it. “If you’re confident, you’re wealthy,” he says. “I’ve seen guys who work on a ship channel and they get to a certain point and they’re confident. You can look in their faces, they’re longshoremen, and they have this confidence about them...I’ve seen a lot of guys with millions and they don’t have any confidence,” he says. “So they’re not wealthy.”
First of all, distrust all claims like 'money is not everything'. Without money you simply cannot stay physically attractive. You need fresh, organic, mostly veg. food, because a healthy diet is the most important part of your nonverbal value. The skin, the hair, even the teeth - they all depends of food. Then banal clothes. They must be clean, they must be of appropriate size, they must be new. They could be not expensive, but new. Then body. You must look young even if you not. So, fitness is the must. Without fitness it is almost impossible to attract people who are younger than you. That is obvious - everyone can see anything. Swimming (look at the bodies of professional swimmers) running, biking, rollerblading, and as mentioned above - active dancing.
So, fresh, organic food, dress code (I'm personally trying to follow anime-inspired style. I love that feeling) and serious training of the body - all these tasks requires great amount of money.
I didn't mention so-called verbal part which is the second side of the coin. In simple words - you must be selfless, interesting, useful - which requires even more effort and daily practice than all these physical activities described above. You need great deal of time, which is money.
So, if you do not have enough money, invest your time in seeking for knowledge and, as result, money. Girls then will find you themselves.
It can also be cheap to be fit, exercise gives you new thoughts, and doesn't take long. The downside of exercise is injury, over-exertion and poor form. Again, like clothes, you don't have to be fit all the time, you can ramp it up when you want to start giving off some pheromones with your new clothes.
Diet is crucial all the time. Here's the key: avoid all processed foods and stay away from trans-fats. Choose water.
How... heteronormative... of him. I'll pick my own brand of suitable, thankyouverymuch.
http://www.thetaoofdating.com/page3.php
I'm not saying this means the article or product isn't valid or interesting but it does look like they have successful gamed HN.
being raised in a family/culture that quashes social interaction and activities is the thing that will salt your game.
edit: pulled it back to original version
"being smart will get you laid, for sure. being raised in a family/culture that quashes social interaction and activities is the thing that will salt your game."
In addition, getting into physical shape wouldn't hurt: initial attraction (what gets you the first date) is still mostly physical and being in good shape makes one confident (which gets you past the first three dates). Being in shape will also give you far more energy for 80 work weeks and all night hackathons (in no way, will being physically fit magically make you into a "jock").
For about 3 hours of work I can make it happen + tips.
But seriously, I'm not willing to "get some" because it requires me to do things I don't want or willing to. It's sort of like PG's essay on popularity.
What are the things that you don't want to do or are unwilling to do that you think would get you laid?
(1) Be interesting. (2) Be interested. (3) Be clean.
They don't guarantee success with every woman in every situation, but if she's available, they give you a decent shot, and not just at getting laid.
Yes, some other things work in some situations.
is it necessary for survival?
i think the problem areas lay in the fact that everyone is buying into the greatest hood wink of life and turning it into something greater than it really should be.
Anybody can get laid. Finding someone who wants to put up with you the rest of the time is the true accomplishment.
Dear Nature, I would like to eliminate most of the planet's inhabitants as a dating prospect by virtue or vice of me being smart. Thank you.
More details about it from pg : http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html
To fight is to defend. If it's not now then tell me when would be the time that you would stand up and be a man. For to lose I could accept, but to surrender I just wept, and regretted this moment that I was the fool.
'Cause I'm a man, not a boy, and there are things you can't avoid. You have to face them when you're not prepared to face them. If I could, I would, but you're with him, now it'd do no good. I should've fought him. But instead I let him... I let him take it.
Here's the thing: your romantic success has nothing to do with your mental jewelry and everything to do with how you make the other person feel. - this thing was painted on every wall from the beginning of the time.
The problem is much more difficult and this approach is suitable perhaps only for the Cosmopolitan magazine. The Freud's lectures of psyhoanalysis can be useful as an bird-eye overview of the problem.
The main idea is about altering a personal history to get rid of a fixations, regressions, and other things which were accumulated from the past and especially childhood, developing new habits, changing yourself.
And there is a top-secret-great-magic-word: practice.
If one in in his/her thirties and still looking at this kind of books or texts that simply indicates the very serious problem which requires an intensive therapy. Time waits for no one
You were expressing apprehension at exploring why those particular attributes confer a high success rate.
i.e. Why might bad behavior be rewarded?