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Comment by voidlogic | Hacker News Reader

"Be the first to share this on Hacker News"

I'm not sure how this is news worthy- I guess some people feel every entry in their diary of personal accomplishments must grace the pages of Hacker News. I'm glad the author overcame his disorder, but asking people to post it to HN...

I also imagine this will be a great way for a lot more people than the 0.15 to 0.17% of the population that actually has Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder [1] to rationalize their lack of willpower.

1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder#Pr...

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Whether he misdiagnosed himself is kind of irrelevant. The case is:

- He's had a chronic problem with sleep. - He was able to overcome his problem with sleep by realizing it was not so much a personal or moral fault, but a problem that was being approached the wrong way. - He related the story to a friend who felt that her inability to sleep was a character weakness, and upon realizing that maybe it was just that she had a difference and needed to approach that problem differently was a comfort to her. - He thought maybe that sharing the story with others would help them recognize that maybe their sleep problems weren't a bad character trait like laziness, but instead just an unsolved problem on how to properly let themselves fall asleep.

I disagree with some of his diagnoses, and even question whether the processes he was using actually helped in the way he thought they did. However, I appreciate the premise that "laziness" is not the cause of oversleeping, and approaching it as a solvable problem rather than trying to bruteforce your way to wakefulness and feeling like a failure when it doesn't work is a better solution.

What exactly is "willpower" and why would a lack of it need to be rationalized? "Morning people" don't need to exert a lot of mental effort to be wakeful in the morning. To insinuate that someone needs to "rationalize a lack of willpower" implies that willpower is some sort of moral resource that morally superior people have a higher quantity of. But all that's in there is hormones and neurons and flesh and blood. If they're not interacting properly, and you can organize yourself so they interact better, then it would be foolish not to.

>>Whether he misdiagnosed himself is kind of irrelevant

I never claimed the author misdiagnosed himself or was lazy-

>>What exactly is "willpower" and why would a lack of it need to be rationalized... To insinuate that someone needs to "rationalize a lack of willpower" implies that willpower is some sort of moral resource...

Assuming the people in question do not suffer from a legitimate disorder: Willpower is the ability to make yourself do things you feel must be done when you don't feel like it. It is an extention of self-control and lack of it IS a moral deficiency.

>> "Morning people" don't need to exert a lot of mental effort to be wakeful in the morning

Now is getting up at the crack of 8:00 AM easier for some people than other? Yes it is. However we all face things that are harder for us than others in some area of our lives and become able to overcome that is important.

>>If they're not interacting properly, and you can organize yourself so they interact better, then it would be foolish not to.

I completely agree and did not say otherwise.

>>But all that's in there is hormones and neurons and flesh and blood.

A disorder is when a persons biology is so abnormal/dysfunctional they require treatment. If you have a sleep disorder I would give anyone a free pass in this department, but for anyone else I expect them to master their biology. The same way we must master our biological tenancies and 1. control our tempers 2. control our sex drives 3. control our desire to over eat 4. control our desire to be "efficient" and not exercise. Unless you have a disorder, sleep is no different.

For most people the early start only has to be done because we are stuck in bad working structures. Sure some people need to be in at a certain time to collaborate but for many it is just arbitrary and they aren't achieving any more by being in at 8 instead of 10.

If your employer is cool with starting at 10 rather than 8, and you prefer 10, that sounds great.

Sorry, but in this case, I don't consider a lack of willpower to be a moral deficiency.

When does the need for willpower become excessive? When does it change from a deficiency in the person, to a deficiency in the environment?

If one doesn't have the willpower to work 15 hour days, that isn't a deficiency in the person, it's a deficiency in the environment.

I argue that the same is the case for people with sleep and eating disorders. To fix these disorders with willpower alone, is simply too much to ask for the majority of people. It lies in a deficiency in the environment -- an unlimited access to unhealthy food, and an unlimited access to stimulating light.

Willpower clearly isn't the way. We have to look at solving these problems by improving our environment (I don't mean that in a green, nature way, I just mean whatever existence surrounds the person with the issue)

> I also imagine this will be a great way for a lot more people than the 0.15 to 0.17% of the population that actually has Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder to rationalize their lack of willpower.

Yep. Unless you've been professionally diagnosed, just pointing to a Wikipedia page and saying "I have that!" as an excuse for your behaviour is not the right thing to do. The same thing happened with Asperger Syndrome; it became the excuse du jour for dickish behaviour. "Oh, I'm not anti-social, I have Aspergers." No, actually, you're just a dick.

Using "I have this-or-that disorder" as an excuse (unless you have been professionally diagnosed) is just that: an excuse. It also belittles those who actually do have the disorder, which could be an even worse side effect.

Well said.

What is the difference between a disorder and being a dick? What if I have Assholegers? Is that less acceptable than Autism? Why?

(Aspergers is no longer a disorder, it got rolled into autism.)

> What is the difference between a disorder and being a dick?

Choice.

Autistic people aren't always particularly annoying.

Anyway, one's based on a deficit of ability and the other's based on a deficit of will.

Oh, I'll grant that strictly speaking the dick can't really be anything else - free will doesn't exactly show up as a major correlate.

But when you change the social pressure's in the dick's case you get different behaviours out at the other end - whereas when you change the social pressures in the autistic person's case they don't stop being autistic for all you can train some of them to fake it somewhat when they get older.

Why should you use willpower to control sleep if working a different time slice is neutral or better for your job?

>>if working a different time slice is neutral or better for your job

If that is compatible with your job, great! That is the simple and most logical solution, job permitting. I never said otherwise, so I'm pretty sure you are reading words I never said...

I replied to the wrong person. Was aiming at CanSplice

Sorry there!

It's not newsworthy it's just the latest piece of random bla bla written for HN to advertise a startup completely unrelated to the subject matter.

AKA growth hacking.

Yea -- this is advertising for the 42floors brand. What they're saying doesn't have to have anything to do with their product or brand, merely seeing that they're saying stuff puts their brand back in front of our eyeballs.

It looks like people don't like this being pointed out. My comment went from +5 to -2...

Were the downvotes for building a strawman argument and using it troll?

Seeing as I never disagreed with anything the author said I'd be interested to know what the strawman argument in question here is.

I did note that I think: 1. The post seemed like marketing/self promotion for his brand using a personal issue as cover and draw attention to his businesses blog. If this was a personal blog I would have no issue. 2. Many people who do not suffer from the disorder are going to use it as justification for their behaviour.

I don't see how those concerns are trolling.

I agree. Too many people think that a "condition" frees them from all personal responsibility.

I agree, I do have sympathy for someone really suffering from a condition, but they must be open about it and make their life work. Maybe that means treatment or just a honest conversation with their employer or both.

What really bothers me is: Sleepy Hacker: "I get shitfaced every night and go to bed at 2 AM. I can't seem to get up at 7:30 AM for work ever! I set like 5 alarms! I must have Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder." rolls eyes

If you think you have Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder, get tested, get treatment, communicate.

> a honest conversation with their employer

Sucker.

Have you considered finding a better employer? They exist.

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