Changes to "key" parts of Windows 8 are coming | Hacker News Reader

Changes to "key" parts of Windows 8 are coming

theregister.co.uk

33 pointsnealabq60 comments

Nowhere does it say Windows Blue will include the Start button. It's purely speculation based on this:

"In a separate interview with Mary-Jo Foley, Reller said simply that Blue would “address customer feedback” Microsoft has received on Windows 8 and Windows RT."

A poor article with a sensationalist headline against MS: great for HN!

Edit: at the time of this comment, the submission title was "Microsoft: All RIGHT, you can have your Start button back"

It is a Register uk tongue in cheek article title, it isn't meant to be sensationalist.

Microsoft is pointing the finger on everything but the actual product. The bigger issue is the poor usability of the product and the benefit of this product is poorly understood by both consumers and microsoft. What's interesting is the Windows 8 overall concept is pretty much the same as a year before Windows 8 was released. You had the metro interface, the desktop app, the lack of a start button... How could they not figure out solution to these issues after having ALL THAT TIME.

"Reller reportedly admitted that Microsoft hadn’t done enough to close the knowledge gap by training staff in outlets selling Windows 8 machines or by educating customers in the run-up to last October's launch."

"There also seems to be a hint Microsoft recognizes it slipped up by not doing enough to persuade PC makers to build hardware actually capable of using Metro’s UI, which is largely irrelevant on machines lacking touch screens."

>. You had the metro interface, the desktop app, the lack of a start button... How could they not figure out solution to these issues after having ALL THAT TIME.

I don't get why people are so upset that the start button is gone. To launch a program I just hit the windows key and start typing the name. This is exactly what I did on windows 7 (though I never used it as my primary OS). The things that show up on the screen are somewhat different, but the result is identical.

As a longtime Alfred user on the mac, the winkey+typing method feels quite natural and works well.

But that's not something a very large percentage of windows users are accustom to doing. There's nothing about the window logo on a keyboard that would make users think "I press this to get a menu." It's completely not discoverable. This(lack of discoverability) is actually an underlying theme for the entire metro interface.

The workflow change resulting from the removal of the Start menu is very real, but there are other issues as well. When I opened some System menu, I could only Alt-Tab out of it, there was no visible option to close it. It turns out that you can Alt+F4 to close, but this occurred to me after continuously using WinKey -> Desktop -> Window that I want. The removal of Aero is also questionable -- the Square UI looks terrible in comparison, and I'm left to wonder why they wouldn't leave it as a choice.

> and I'm left to wonder why they wouldn't leave it as a choice.

Because choice in UI configuration leads to UI diversity and UI diversity leads to the dilution of the UI brand.

They want all machines to look the same.

The lack of shadows behind windows is what bugs me the most. My eyes get lost in a sea of square garbage.

"When I opened some System menu, I could only Alt-Tab out of it, there was no visible option to close it"

Pressing the windows key to bring it up and windows to back out of it works just fine.

Right - so it works like the Windows 7 one, so what need was there to change? :)

I've used Windows regularly since Windows '95 (when it was Windows 3.x, I preferred DOS...) and the loss of the start menu is actually quite annoying. After 17 years you get used to these things and having them changed around is about as helpful as somebody swapping your left and right feet.

I've seen plenty of worthwhile changes, that required some adjustment but were ultimately worthwhile. Addition of start screen is fine; you get nice big blocks to click on, I like that. Total removal of start menu is bullshit. Just another revolution of the tech hamsterwheel, taking you nowhere.

The iPad doesn't have a start menu. Android doesn't have a start menu. That doesn't seem to be terribly disruptive to many workflows.

iPad? Workflow? :)

Neither of those OSes is Windows, which has millions of users with 15-20 years of ingrained habits and tricks that work just fine for them and have for years.

It's different for Windows because Windows occupies a totally different part of the computing world.

You might as well say that Windows 8 doesn't work for Windows because Windows 8 occupies a different part of the computing world. It exists in a market where an ever increasing number of people are telling Microsoft that Windows Classic is an unfeasible product to revolve a business around.

For years techies and the media have been clamoring for the end of Windows, the end of the desktop, and the post-PC world. Now it's here and has somehow caught everyone off-guard in that Microsoft actually listened.

Perhaps if the whole thing had been a ground-up redesign, a genuine end to Windows, they'd have had more success? As it is, it's Windows 7 (or near enough) with some Metro jazz tacked on as an afterthought. It's not different enough to be exciting, simply different enough to be annoying.

Or maybe MS simply shouldn't have listened ;)

>otal removal of start menu is bullshit. Just another revolution of the tech hamsterwheel, taking you nowhere.

If you really miss it, third party solutions have been around to solve this problem since the RC.

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/141702-how-to-bring-the...

A co-worker recommends classic shell, though some of the others look pretty nice as well.

>I don't get why people are so upset that the start button is gone.

I get it. The Start button is useful. When I first installed Windows 8, it was a little painful to find my way around. Then I realized something... Windows 8 does have a Start button. If I move the mouse to the lower-left of the screen, a button labeled "Start" pops up. I click on it and up pops my pinned applications. Sure, it's called the Windows 8 interface (formerly known as Metro) but when it gets down to it, it's actually a fairly similar methodology to previous Windows versions. If I right-click in a blank area on that list of pinned applications, I get an option to see "All Programs" in addition to the pinned ones.

Basically, after an hour or two of using Windows 8 I became used to the new interface. The only other thing that's important to do is replace the crappy Metro versions of applications with standard Windows versions. The biggest one to replace is the PDF Reader.

>The biggest one to replace is the PDF Reader. I think a PDF reader inside IE would make the most sense here. I have been using Chrome/Firefox's built in PDF reader with good results for my uses.

Which other ones do you dislike?

I think Mail is pretty weak, but I also think if you're displeased with it, you probably also have a copy of excel or use a browser client.

I'm shallow as fuck.

I'm upset that Aero is gone and the simple blue border is in.

By using Windows 8, I discovered I'm much more of a visual thinker than I thought. When I want to launch Excel, I know where it is in the menu and what the icon looks like, but the name "excel" doesn't necessarily come to mind. I just want to launch a spreadsheet program, or a CD burning program, or a graphics program. Having to type the name is a serious slow down. And I'm a Windows programmer with 20 years experience!

I'm not by any means a MS Hater but here's my vent:

Windows 8 is represents the worst of Microsoft - new products/features for the sake of "new". Every tech enthusiast relative I have has been very excited to get a win 8 computer and then has had the exact same reaction to the new OS - "how do I use this"? Why does MS feel the need to re-do a UI, which wasn't broken and force all it's users (many of whom aren't tech enthusiasts to learn something new). Please, just stick with Win 7 and improve it's actual components. E.g. the builtin search isn't as good as spotlight on my Mac. So fix search, but please leave the start button unchanged because it's not bad.

Yesterday I was doing something and got a popup in Windows 8, which told me to "tap" to choose some option. I was a little amused but mostly annoyed. It just shows how deep they went to force me to use a tablet UI on a desktop computer, where I have a mouse and a screen that is not touch sensitive.

I installed Classic Shell pretty soon after upgrading from Windows 7. It was either that or destroy my computer in frustration.

I still get the odd "ooops, what key combo did I press that activated tablet mode!?!?!" It usually takes me a minute or two to get back to a "normal" situation (where I can see the windows on my desktop).

I do have this very annoying bug, though: about once a month, the Z order gets completely messed up. Alt-tab doesn't go to the previous window and goes to "show the desktop". The only fix: logout and login again. Very frustrating.

You're half right -- it does represent the worst of Microsoft, but not because of new-for-the-sake-of-new. It represents the worst of Microsoft because it's entirely designed around what Microsoft needs rather than what the user needs.

Windows 8 is the way it is because of two things Microsoft needs:

- Microsoft needs to be relevant in the world of tablets; and

- Microsoft needs the market for traditional PCs to not evaporate.

So they built a product that is focused entirely on reconciling these two needs -- a product that tries, awkwardly, to serve the needs of both kinds of devices. A product that tries to make Windows relevant to tablets while at the same time not making tablets so awesome that people stop buying traditional PCs for them.

The result leaves users cold, because it wasn't designed for them. It was designed to meet Microsoft's corporate strategy imperatives rather than to solve a problem actual users have.

It's the worst of Microsoft because of this classic BigCo thinking -- the thinking that the problems products need to solve are the ones that are worried about in the BigCo's executive suite, rather than those the customers are worrying about out there in the world. It's inward-looking product design, which rarely works.

Your point is well taken. But, from a user perspective, it's simply unsolicited change with non-obvious benefit.

From a user perspective, it's exactly what people have been asking for when they started buying iPads to replace their desktops.

I've had the opposite experience. I bought an MS Surface Pro and I absolutely love Windows 8 and Metro. It's the best tablet experience going. I like it so much I bought a Windows Phone too.

The Surface presents new interesting dynamics in that my tablet can become a full fledged PC whenever needed. I do dev work in Visual Studio on it. So I find Windows 8 to be very successful for this particular device. Admittedly, the desktop experience is a tad awkward and in that mode some of the Metro stuff could be toned down. But I am very happy with this "hybrid" machine overall, and think MS is on to something.

I'm sure win8 is great on a tablet, when you're expecting a tablet experience. But for people who instinctively upgrade their PC every few years, a new UI is just annoying.

I agree. When Win8 was first announced my hunch said they needed separate versions for tablets and desktops. Now that I have a hybrid desktop/tablet device, I understand their intention.

With that said, it's completely true the desktop side of Win8 needs a bit of work.

Just the amount of effort required to put the computer to sleep... ugh.

The instructions are:

1) (Sometimes) when you hover in a corner a menu will popup or press WIN + C.

2) Click settings (in the midst of 4(?) other options)

3) Click the power button.

4) Click the desired state.

Way too many paths in that state diagram for a typical user. For the common tasks, I expect to make two-three transitions with limited, unambiguous, options. Some of my workflow has transitioned to passing four to five states (usually in Metro at this point), back to desktop, to Chrome to locate help, back to the beginning of the state diagram to perform my original task.

I don't have my Windows 8 box in front of me, but I believe this can be simplified by simply pressing Alt+F4 at the desktop.

Very true, but the less tech-savy crowd does not often use key commands.

Does the less tech-savvy crowd often shut down their computers manually? Seems like they'd rather just close their laptop lid and let it do whatever it does.

Not sure why you bring up laptops, some of us use Windows to do what it does best, on PC's with good graphics cards.

If you're on HN and using a desktop with a good graphics card, are you in the "less tech-savvy" crowd that would not be able to shut down a computer?

I once used a laptop for a two hour hackathon. The risk, price, performance, and power ratios of owning a desktop versus a laptop never quite added up to me.

My wife knows (from some prior experience) that unplugging the computer without shutting down can be dangerous. She also knows that putting the computer to sleep will lock the computer and not let friends/child on the desktop without asking for a password.

I think it's the tech savvy crowd that doesn't bother to put their computers to sleep...just ctrl-alt-delete lock and go to lunch...like a phone it will (hopefully) goto sleep, and if it doesn't, not my power bill.

I guess if I had a desktop PC at home, life would be different, but I haven't had one of those since 2001.

Why don't you just close the lid or press the power button on the computer?

http://i.imgur.com/allxzAQ.png

The reason this stuff is buried in a 2nd-level menu is that you're not supposed to need it. It's power-user stuff. Normal users are expected to either close the lid or press the power button, as they do on every other type of computer-y device now (phones, tablets, ereaders, etc). Software power buttons were a UX mistake this OS is correcting.

I was using my wife's experience as content. I have a different perception of how to attack problems. She knows there is a power button 'somewhere' in the desktop environment. She knows clicking the mouse twice turns on the computer. However, luckily, clicking the mouse twice does not turn off the computer. Our power button is not easily accessible or recognized from the restart button (case design issue).

On your edit, I believe 'power-user' is a strong term. It was only a decade ago when pressing my power button could mean corrupting documents. These ideas stick.

Locking the computer when I walk away at work is common work. Leaving an unlocked computer at a financial institution is a dangerous scenario. These are Excel wizards, data entry, and so on who might be baffled by the premise of anything that is not Excel or Word.

Hitting the power button is not as intuitive as closing a laptop lid. The power button is considered dangerous except for turning on the computer by most normal users.

Be thankful that Vista and later requires ACPI to boot.

Is some UI duplication really so terrible, especially on a desktop with a big screen? There are times when putting something where the user expects to find it should trump reducing clutter.

Windows + I is a good shortcut to get you directly to #3.

Win+L will lock it, which is what I do when I stand up from my desk.

Or you can add a button to the start screen - http://www.howtogeek.com/77061/how-to-add-shutdown-restart-s...

Now, if Microsoft could bring back ClearType so the fonts don't look all borked up on normal PC screens anymore...

There has been a lot of strange things happening over at Redmond lately.

I still remember the developer preview that still had the start menu, which reminds me of this (see responses by Brandon Live in particular): http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1081755-do-you-like-or-hat...

too late.

I agree. They might as well add the start button back in and start calling it an early release of windows 9.

We've had exactly zero requests for Win8 on our product. The largest customers that we asked (and who get all the attention, frankly) told us they are sticking to the every-other-windows-release plan. And god help MS if they screw up on Win9.

Too late? Windows 8 already sold 100 million licenses despite the slowdown in PC sales because of tablets, on par with Windows 7 at release.

Meanwhile, Google does not release Chromebook numbers and web share stats show sales are much worse than even WindowsRT, yet we don't seem to hear how ChromeOS is a total failure.

While Windows 8 total sales might be on-par with Windows 7 sales, the total number of devices is not. This essentially suggests a decline in overall (total) market share for Windows.

Do you have industry data that shows the difference between sales and total number of devices? Would like to see it if you have it.

Reference? StatCounter data seems to show the opposite of what you're stating.

"While Windows 8 total sales might be on-par with Windows 7 sales, the total number of devices is not. This essentially suggests a decline in overall (total) market share for Windows."

Or a shift away from desktop PCs, perhaps?

Yes, too late for Windows 8. I worked at Microsoft, i know something about release cycles and sales cycles and basically, i can spot the BS and back peddling in the MS press releases because i sat in on enough meetings that drafted that nonsense. And actually, if Google Chromebook is a failure, that fact (i have no idea if it is or isn't a failure) does nothing to support your red herring comment. In case you can't follow that, I'll spell it out for you, accepting your alleged claim that a competing OS is failing (in this case, Chromebook) should, in fact, help sell more units of competing offers, including Windows 8. Yet, the Windows 8 numbers are still way, way off. Windows 8 is a complete and total mess on the desktop. Yes, i bought the upgrade (MS alumni discount), installed it, fought it for 2 frustrating weeks, and eventually flattened my drive back to Windows 7. You think i'm jumping to 8.1 anytime soon? Uh, no. I'm a developer and overall power user, so please spare me the "you were using it wrong" comments.

Also, selling 100 million units of Windows 8 is considered a failure at MS.

>can spot the BS and back peddling in the MS press releases

Perhaps you mean backpedaling?

>Uh, no. I'm a developer and overall power user, so please spare me the "you were using it wrong" comments.

Speak for yourself, I am a power user too and it took all of ten minutes to get used to Windows 8.

Even a 3 year old kid doesn't seem to have trouble. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=d...

For me it is not that difficult, but I am not saying that it is a better desktop interface than in Win7, and I can see how people with large monitors may find it a bit jarring.

yes, that's just part of the problem, and it is a big issue seeing as i have a 24" monitor. The crux of the problem is that there is no way to fully disengage from Metro. Yes, you can get to your old desktop and fine, there is no Start button (not ideal, but not the end of the world). This is fine until you use some of the built-in Windows apps/features that jolt you back into Metro mode. If i can run Windows 8 -exactly- like Windows 7, then there would be no issues. Side note, i actually like the Metro UI, it looks refreshing and interesting. However, it's simply unusable to people that are used to having 3-7 windows open/apps running at any given time. Power users, developers, designers, engineers, etc. ... people that use various apps to "produce" content will struggle with Windows 8. Now, if you're primarily a consumer of content, that's a different story and i can't speak to that on a desktop. Personally, I use my iPad to consume content and that's been a pleasant surprise.

Thanks for correcting my grammar. As for a 3 year old using Windows 8, well, thanks for giving me yet another reason not to use Windows 8. Good to hear that you and the 3 year old are having success with it.

"As for a 3 year old using Windows 8, well, thanks for giving me yet another reason not to use Windows 8."

This doesn't make the rest of your opinions sound more sincere.

unfortunately yes, when i have to interact with someone posting nonsense, the result is sometimes ugly. On another note, it would be good to see the same level of scrutiny shown towards my rebuttal, be applied to the original reply of my post about "Google Chromebook", which is right up there with the price of tea in China.

The big problem going forward is what to do about the metro/desktop app dichotomy. They work in totally different ways and essentially require two different interfaces in a single platform. Now that they created this they will essentially have to support both for the foreseeable future.

I can't believe Microsoft didn't think through how they were going to improve windows incrementally instead of making a hail mary pass that essentially bet Windows(the brand not just the desktop OS) on a vision that touch screens would be everywhere for laptop/desktop users.

I don't now how to interpret this comment from the article: "Reller admitted Microsoft hadn’t focused “all of its financial incentives behind the touch screen PCs that show off Windows 8 to best advantage,” the FT said." First of all, you can't force consumers to buy your products just using financial incentives for system builders. Second, this looks like classic microsoft of throwing money at the market and hoping to succeed eventually.

It would have been a lot more flexible just to adapt windows phone to touch screens instead of going the other way and shoehorning windows into mobile devices with a totally different interface that now has to be supported on the desktop as well and dramatically increases the complexity for microsoft, its developers and users.

People keep talking about how the start screen replaces the start menu and it is actually an improvement(even Microsoft claimed this); I think this is a rather strange argument as no one was clamoring for a new program launcher in every version of windows since 95! And even if it is an improvement in a very narrow aspect the weirdness of using a component designed for touch screens as the main launcher for a desktop environment can't be overcome.

And worse, Windows 8 itself will remain completely unchanged. Any fixes will be in the next os release.

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