Apple: Macbook Air isn't suitable for simultaneous use of Xcode and external display | Hacker News Reader

Apple: Macbook Air isn't suitable for simultaneous use of Xcode and external display

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26 pointsTimH33 comments

I had a first gen MBA for 9 months. Exact same kernel task issue - it was always hooked up to my 24-inch. Ended up going out of my way doing some undervolting to keep one of the cores from shutting down. It's not like it was actually overheating when it would shutdown one of the cores before my little hack. It was maintaining regular temperatures, even tested with a fan on it on a raised platform.

Anywho, 9 months was enough for me to realize I needed more juice and I've since graduated and hack from home full-time so I don't really need mobility. My new MBP+ Intel SSD is working just fine.

As for the MacBook Air.. I fell asleep with it one night and woke up to a cracked screen. After I got that fixed I took it to Apple for another issue and they returned it to me with a german keyboard. Huge mess up on their part, got it on the consumerist and such. They gave me a new one which I sold. /rant

Is it possible to a transcript from the court proceedings? I'm not familiar with NZ law at all. I'm mainly curious to see how Apple argued that plugging in an external monitor into an external monitor port and running an Apple-built program on an Apple-built computer could be argued as "inappropriate use". That's some crack lawyering!

So, reading the order it seems that what happened was:

1. Guy is shopping for a computer for dev use.

2. Guy talks to sales consultant, explaining what he needs to do, and is told "get a MacBook Air".

3. Guy discovers MacBook Air isn't capable of handling the workload he's putting on it, it overheats and shuts down CPU cores.

4. Guy files dispute.

5. Apple says "yeah, the the MacBook Air can't handle this type of load".

6. Dispute judge says sales consultant shouldn't have recommended the MacBook Air, then.

7. Dispute judge says guy can return MacBook Air for a full refund since he was misled into believing it could handle the work he needed to do.

Moral of the story: an ultra-thin laptop which explicitly trades off performance for size probably isn't the ideal machine for compiling lots of stuff while also powering a monitor the size of a breakfast table, and salespeople who tell you it is shouldn't be trusted.

Nope, not the ideal machine. a $10k Mac Pro would be much better. I was given the impression it would be adequate though, and I picked it for it's portability.

If it's not adequate for the tasks it shouldn't be promoted as such. The web page for the Macbook Air says it comes with Xcode, and runs a large external display. Perhaps I should have known better, but I tried to do my research. ;-)

Yea, I don't think people quite understand what the Macbook Air issue is. As a fellow MBA owner, I can vouch for this behavior. The system will become completely unusable while the 'kernel_task' takes over the system trying to cool it down.

I've experienced the exact same thing running a 24" LCD, firefox, and Entourage. Hardly an uncommon or extreme setup, but it's enough to throw the system off kilter. And when kernel_task goes into "cool this thing off NOW" mode, the system is unusable for 4-5 minutes.

The MBA is a beautiful monster.

Is your MBA a revision A or revision B?

I've heard that the revision B (128GB or 120GB hard disk) is more stable.

"If it's not adequate for the tasks it shouldn't be promoted as such."

I think there's a disconnect here. Yes, it comes with Xcode. Yes, it's advertised as being able to run a large external display. But the question is: "can it do both of these things (in the case of Xcode, most likely building some complex project) simultaneously, and persist in so doing for an extended period of time?"

It appears the answer to that question is "no", and frankly I don't find that particularly surprising. I also don't think it really contradicts the marketing materials. Consider a different example: the MacBook Air comes with a wide variety of applications preinstalled, and this is an advertised feature of the laptop. But if I attempt to launch and use them all simultaneously, the system will become unusable very quickly as it runs out of RAM and has to start swapping. Does that mean Apple is falsely advertising its capabilities by touting the applications which come preinstalled?

This isn't the case with the MBA. You have no idea how little it takes to push it over the edge.

There's a good chance that running anything on the external display is what's pushing it over the edge. If you look around, the most common complaint is that flash video (you know, non-HD youtube) is enough to kick the machine. In my case, it's Entourage.

a $10k Mac Pro would be much better

or a £2k macbook pro.

or a ~1400$ Macbook.

I run my 22" external monitor, and a zillion other things and have never had speed issues.

I've been using the pro mac laptop line (I still catch myself using the much-better PowerBook name) for dev+2nd screen since late 2001.

The fact that the air can't seem to handle a second framebuffer and edit text at the same time is a little ridiculous.

"isn't capable of handling the workload"

I don't know what Xcode is doing, but I am certain even a very dedicated and proactive IDE spends most of the time waiting for keystrokes. There is _no_ reason why Xcode could cause this behaviour.

BTW, I am very happy with my Atom-based netbook for developing stuff with Django. There was a time when developers needed a lot of power, but those days are long gone and today it's the guys who do video editing/encoding, manipulate huge datasets and play games that need the big computers.

He was probably compiling stuff in Xcode, which could in fact make one of his cores overheat.

Yes, but compiling for several hours? Even on my Bondi-blue iMac compiles don't take long enough.

On my Atom-based netbook, compiles don't even increase fan activity.

And why would that be related to a dual-head setup?

That's something seriously wrong going on here.

It's the "Disputes Tribunal". So it's not a proper "Court" per se - you present your case to a mediator, in person.

http://www.justice.govt.nz/disputes/about/default.asp for more information.

My boss had serious problems with his MacBook Air using Firefox on JavaScript-heavy web sites all day. They refuse to fix it / replace it under AppleCare saying that using a web browser is inappropriate use! Crazy.

Obviously they can't afford to just come clean and admit the issues.

Interesting. I bought a (march'09 macmini) to run dual monitors both at 1920x1200. So far it's doing the job quite well. Xcode included. Though I had to upgrade (max out) the ram.

Do they now have two monitor ports of some sort? My mini had only one DVI.

Yes: Mini DisplayPort to Dual-Link DVI

http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html

I don't think this is related to the Macbook Air problem, but Apple doesn't seem to be doing so well with Mini DisplayPort and large displays:

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB571Z/A?fnode=MTY1NDA3Ng&...

This story is about my Macbook Air. In January I'd had enough of Apple and Renaissance mucking me about, so gave them another week to respond, they didn't so I filed the dispute. I also purchased a new 15 inch Macbook Pro to use in the mean time. Got it home, and it started exhibiting problems too: http://vimeo.com/2911394

Apple said to switch the power settings to "high performance" and leave them there. Basically I think this forces it to use one of the video cards and not the other. Since then it hasn't shown the problem, but the battery doesn't last as long...

Apple. Love 'em, Hate 'em.

So you use the mini dvi, plus the minidisplay port?

I do. Works well.

To understand the problem fully, you have to make a serious distinction between first and second generation Airs.

I have both, and the first generation becomes completely unuseable rather quickly, external display or not, when you push it even mildly. (Youtube (non-HD) alone will do it.)

The second generation is much more resistant, but if the room gets hot, with my 24" external monitor connected, I do see the kernel_task slowdown at times. (E.g., when a Time Machine backup kicks in, with 10-12 apps going, mostly in the background, and I'm doing something mildly computation-intensive in the foreground.)

Is there a version of whatever this is that isn't on scribd?

There's a download button.

It doesn't work.

By "doesn't work" I mean that after turning on JavaScript for scribd.com, it tries to pop up a menu over the top of the Flash embed. But popping up anything on top of embedded Flash doesn't work in my browser (FF3 with Gnash on Linux), so I use AdBlock to block the embedded Flash. Then the download menu offers me a "PDF" option. Clicking on that ought to give me a file download; instead, it pops up a box prompting me to sign up for an account with Scribd.

In short, Scribd is a privacy-invading pain in the ass. So, is there a copy of the document that isn't on Scribd?

Yes, there's a version of it in your inbox. Enjoy.

Thank you! That was amusing and interesting. I'm amazed that Apple continues to have such excellent user experiences despite such abysmal quality problems.

Amusing. My eeepc can handle a 24" display and a maxed-out CPU load without any problems. All for about $2000 less than the MBA.

I didn't bother reading all the legalese, but I have a feeling the external monitor has nothing to do with it.

I agree, but it's what Apple used as it's legal defense.

Well the cause of the issue is poor design on Apple's behalf, but:

External monitor -> greater use of video memory -> greater heat -> kernel_task pegging the CPU. See the discussions above.

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