TSA Accepting Public Comments On Whole Body Airport Screening | Hacker News Reader

TSA Accepting Public Comments On Whole Body Airport Screening

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36 pointsjdp2348 comments

(English is not my native language)

I am very surprised by the very large amount of statism that seems to be present in USA in general and on hacker news in particular.

The high level of support for GWOT and all the side dishes like TSA, mass surveillance etc is very surprising.

Each and one of all the things that have been done in the post 9/11 world may partially or completely be justifiable on it's own.

But please, take a step back and paint a picture of where we have come from and were we are going if this trend continues.

If I may help you...

http://i.imgur.com/tfPY1y0.jpg , here is a picture of the subway in New York in the 80's, dirty and full of graffiti - with drugs and violence present and by all means also music, food vendors and a lot of people going to their jobs.

http://i.imgur.com/AxWRPgl.jpg , here is the Moscow subway from the same time. Clean, spotless and no one behaves disorderly without the police arresting them quickly, police officers with none of the ridiculous limitations that the western police had in their code of conduct at that time.

In which of those two subways would you prefer to ride to work every day?

With every new alfabet law designed to protect us that passes through the parliaments, with every new government agency we move closer to a society that looks more like the Moscow subway station.

Not to long ago we were prepared for thermonuclear war to defend our ways.

Today we are giving up our open and free society with a cheer so we can stay safe. Step by step, piece by piece.

Why can't the otherwise so intelligent and educated crowd of hacker news see that our society is heading in the direction of a police state? We are not there yet, but it is where we will end up if we don't turn around soon.

Is it possible to opt in for cleanliness and freedom? Perhaps something like http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=swedish+subway ? (I understand that it is not a perfectly free country nor a perfectly clean country, but it looks good enough.)

Well, last time I visited, the Athens subway was spotless too, so I don't know how much correlation exists between "cleanliness of subways" and "police state". Maybe "cleanliness of subways" and "number of cleaning staff on subway".

As a counterpoint, I've spoken with several who have visited and/or studied Singapore, and they attribute its cleanliness to police enforcement, not janitorial staff.

The American people are resourceful, well armed and have a strong distrust of government, any attempted police state would last about five minutes and result in impeachment.

HAHAHAHAHHAHHAHA. Oh, jeez. /me wipes a tear. Good one.

Say that, verbatim, to the face of a TSA agent during a patdown after removing your shoes, throwing away a half-empty bottle of water and making damn sure a nail clipper rides in your baggage. But be sure to keep your voice down and avoid an eye contact, lest you want to end up on a no-fly list.

Nerd fantasies of oppression are interesting, they need to feel they are under siege. It is no wonder they have trouble with women and business.

About ten years ago some guys from Saudi Arabia made it their goal to strike terror into US of A.

I would say that they have done a pretty good job.

Let me guess, you're American?

No one here on the ground feels any impending police state, it is wildly impractical.

An article in the Guardian last year by a journalist who lives in Connecticut. Headline - "The TSA's mission creep is making the US a police state"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/apr/...

Who you gonna believe, the Guardian or your own lying eyes.

"Nobody I know feels the danger of a police state, therefore there is no danger of a police state"

You may be hoping America becomes a police state, but you will be disappointed.

Right, anyone who disagrees with you must hate America.

A police state would be economic and political suicide, but I don't want to deprive you of your fantasy.

It's that pompous head in the sand attitude exactly that helps America get to a police state everyday faster and faster. BTW Plutocracy by definition might not be police state, but it lands the same forces on a none existant middle class.

It is amazing that you can't see already how very little freedom you have compared with other nations

It is not pompous. Trying to impose a police state would be economic and political suicide. And what are these freedoms I don't have?

Um, by the looks of what went down in Boston last week we pretty much have a police state. We have more armed "law enforcement" then any nation in the world.

Only if you define police state as voluntary cooperation with the police.

My undressing for the TSA is voluntary?

I must have missed the option where I don't have to get groped in order to fly to the west coast.

I don't think there is wide GWOT support on HN, certainly not TSA.

Sadly in the USA, yeah maybe 50% but they are very vocal about it so it sounds like more in the news.

What surprised me are the "don't do background checks on guns" enthusiasts around here but I suspect they are also just more vocal than the other half.

Why is that New York picture in Black and White, and the Moscow Metro empty?

No one wants a police state, but modern Americans lack the discipline and knowledge to prevent it from happening.

Americans can read about police state atrocities in other countries and be horrified while not understanding that bit by bit, piece by piece, they are constantly trading individual sovereignty for government power.

I'd actually rather ride the NYC subway today than the one in the 80s or the one in Moscow today, so I guess you're presenting a false dichotomy.

I wasn't really talking about subways but rather trying to use a metaphor. :)

Mad Max style Anarchy on one hand, the total and brutal police state on the other and a cosy middle ground somewhere between.

My point being that we are now leaving the cosy middle ground and travelling towards the police state.

We are not there yet, but that's were we are heading.

Can we please make an U-turn at the convenient intersection?

You can also opt out of the scan when you travel which registers your opinion. On average this adds about 3 minutes to the security time, though sometimes longer (up to 7) if other people are getting patdowns. In SFO they log reasons and include health concerns and privacy concerns.

I did this once in Charlotte (which btw is normally an excellent airport). I had to wait about 15 minutes for 'the agent' to show up that would conduct the pat-down. There were about 5 TSA agents standing around doing nothing while I was waiting. Setting aside the wait time, they were all friendly enough, but they all had this look of "ugh... what is this guy's problem", and I wouldn't bet against the wait time being a purposeful deterrent.

So, while I will continue to opt out when possible, I wouldn't recommend doing it if you're short on time.

I did this about 4 times so far but then the last time it now up in my face by adding 1 hour to my screening time and while I philosophically wasn't too keep opting out I have to wonder if I can keep justifying it pragmatically.

How did it add an hour to your screening?

As netnichols stated above, "I had to wait about 15 minutes for 'the agent' to show up that would conduct the pat-down." I'm guessing that this is the reason.

I've successfully opted out once. In that instance, an agent performed a pat-down with no wait. I tried again more recently and, after fruitlessly waiting 5-10 minutes for the special pat-down agent to arrive, gave up and reluctantly went through the backscatter.

On maybe 2-5% of my trips it ends up being 20-30 minute wait at the same airports that normally take 3-5 minutes to find a screener.

As a result I still need to show up 20-30 minutes earlier then I would otherwise.

I always opt out.

At first I thought my opt-out would be recorded, but most of the airports through which I've flown do not record anything about the opt-out. They just pat down the subject and try to keep the lines moving. I no longer believe this is an effective way of registering my opinion.

I always opt out, politely but firmly. I was flying out of SFO once last year when a TSA agent asked me "and your reason for opting out is...?" and I answered "...none of your business." He smiled and from his response I inferred that he approved of and appreciated my response.

The comments seem to have a vastly negative sentiment - which is a good sign - but its probably the vocal minority. People who don't care (the majority) wont even bother commenting.

On last count - I have opted out a dozen times, and I have never stepped foot in one of these machines.

12 is a small sample size but on average it took 15 minutes longer than a metal detector (with a couple outliers of course).

The experience with agents has varied. One of them purposefully stuck me in front of an air-conditioner and I froze for a good 10 minutes while he went off and did something else. On a separate occasion a younger agent barely touched me and waved me by (he seemed less enthusiastic the pat-down than I was!).

I will continue to opt out until either the machines are scrapped or I no longer have a choice. I just add the extra time to my journey knowing that I will most likely be waiting longer.

I have always opted out as well. Recently the agents have started informing me that the new machines are safe, but they rarely answer my follow up question satisfactorily ("Great! Where did you get your degree in biophysics?").

A TSA agent was once similarly telling me how it "emits less radiation than a cell phone" after I opted out. I of course couldn't care as opposed to how invasive it is. I think as a public we tend to value our health, almost unhealthily; but when it comes to civil rights or privacy, we don't care as long as we're not effected.

I've opted out probably 20 times (protip: a lot of times if its busy you can time it so they wave you through the metal detector instead), and almost all have only taken ~5 minutes. Only once or twice have I felt the pat down was excessive or they made me wait too long.

The one genius thing about the body scanners is that the TSA have persuaded people who don't like them that they can protest by opting out.

Opting out isn't a protest. I have no idea why people think it is. You're given a manual search that is just as invasive as a body scan.

If you want to register your discontent with the searches at airports, don't delude yourselves that opting out does anything. No one notices. No one writes it down. No one cares.

Sure it is. Enough people opting out bogs down the system for all. Think of it as a form of malicious compliance.

Which will be promptly ignored.

Yes and no. The TSA does have to respond to the comments, but can simply reaffirm the proposed rule without changes after the comment period. On the other hand, a loud public outcry in comments can lead to changes -- both from the regulatory agency and in Congress (by highlighting a vote-winning issue). There have been a couple of very successful civil liberties commenting campaigns (Know Your Customer, although it eventually got introduced via the Patriot Act; and Stop Real ID, which involved a very similar coalition to the one that's likely to be getting involved here).

KYC was implemented for everything, including prepaid credit cards.

Real ID is very real; basically every state is now a member of the DMVPP and passes data freely, including to Canada and Mexico.

How exactly did comment campaigns do anything? I agree with the GP, the whole exercise is a farce. TSA will have the same guy that writes the condescending "pat pat You don't understand why the grownups want to do this" responses to the We The People petitions respond to all of these comments invoking 9/11 and how the world has changed and how sometimes you just have to accept unpleasant things.

Or, TSA has already decided to take the scanners down, and so now they are just looking to pick up free goodwill since it's bloody obvious what the public would say on the matter.

The are certainly not taking the scanners down.

They are only changing the technological method of scanning.

If anything they are trying to get scanners in more places outside of airports.

If I remember reading correctly, the old scanners are still going to be in use at like courthouses.

My immediate thought was they must be running short on TP.

Ah, what timing

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