In Silicon Valley, Recruiting Clashes With Immigration Limits
nytimes.com
nytimes.com
The key difference between our systems is that Canada issues residency visas, not temporary work visas. Once you have your Canadian permanent residency visa you can work for any employer. Immigrants aren't shackled to a sponsor, so they don't have the same motivation as H1-Bs to accept below-market wages and working conditions.
In addition, the Canadian system is biased in favor of skilled workers. The vast majority of American immigrants are unskilled laborers allowed in through the 'family reunification' program. Canada does have a similar program, but the majority of our immigrants are skilled. There is even a fast-track classification for US H1-B holders.
The problem with the immigration debate in the US is that it's fundamentally dishonest. Employers lionize immigrants, but the last thing they want is a system that treats them fairly.
Care to speculate on the reason for this discrepancy, given that the US and Canada have similar family reunification programs? I mean, you say that most of the US's unskilled immigrants come through the family reunification program, but then go on to say that Canada has a similar program so I don't see how that explains the difference.
Also should perhaps be pointed out that Canada does in fact issue temporary work visas too (not just residency visas), and then there would in fact be constraints on staying with an employer etc. Depending on where one applies from, this is often a faster process than residency; and from that there are avenues such as the provincial nominee program, that allow for expediting the residency process.
For example, Canada issued about 250,000 PR visas last year. 150,000 went to skilled workers and entrepreneurs, whereas only 65,000 went to family members. (Of which, 44,000 were spouses)
The statistics are here if you're curious: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/statistics/facts2008/...
Out of their kids, one is an engineer and the other is a PhD researcher in biology.
I remember my parents applying for immigration to the US. It was a long shot, but it was our first choice. Obviously we didn't make it, and looking at how we turned out I honestly believe that it was America's loss.
"The problem with the immigration debate in the US is that it's fundamentally dishonest. Employers lionize immigrants, but the last thing they want is a system that treats them fairly."
Say the above magic incantation three times and the shills turn to smoke and drift away ...
Drawing on my own personal experience, this is flawed reasoning. His argument might hold for rank-n-file programming jobs, but the Indian native profiled in the article does not fill a rank-n-file job. The second-best candidate for his job is likely an order of magnitude less qualified.
I'm in a CS department at a large state university. I've done an internship in the research division of a large company that depends on innovation to survive. Most of my colleagues are foreign-born. In the case of the company, if those colleagues weren't employed, the work wouldn't get done. These people have unique skills and expertise - that was, not coincidentally, honed at American universities. Filling their positions with the closest qualified American you can find wouldn't result in a slight delay. The project they're on would collapse.
There are a lot of really smart Americans working in law, finance, medicine, and so forth. Do you think these folks are too dumb to work in software? Or are they just rationally responding to a market glut, driven in part by the presence of the H1B program?
I think our policy has driven young Americans out of engineering. To just consider the few Americans who did get these degrees is shortsighted. You have to consider the eighth graders, high school students, and first year college students who have been deterred from entering the field. Because we controlled the wages of engineers with a visa program, but not finance or legal professionals, we deterred our own from going into these fields (creating a more severe shortage, necessitating more visas, creating an even worse shortage, until we had finally reached the point where Americans were no longer even remotely interested in this field).
Basically, America "foreignized" engineering to the point where we no longer have a home grown, self sustaining engineering profession. This has left us extremely vulnerable - even if we do offer the visas, there's no guarantee we can staff these jobs in the US anymore.
By the way, I do think that a robust home-grown engineering field would be enhanced by the presence of many foreign born practitioners. But I think we pushed it to the point where actively undermined the careers of young Americans in engineering, and the next wave of students voted with their feet.
Yes, allow in talented engineers. No, don't leave the level so high that Americans are deterred. A bit of a shortage that causes wage growth and stimulates interest would be a good thing.
Just remember: once bitten, twice shy.
I don't think this is at all a rational response to economic incentives. There was just a thread among a bunch of young lawyers in the alumni network, giving advice to another alum who was thinking of going to law school. They seem significantly less satisfied with their jobs as lawyers than I do with mine as an engineer. They don't make appreciably more money either. Many of them would love to do engineering - if it didn't involve math. If you ask them why they didn't learn more math in high school & college then, almost all will say that at some point, they fell of the train and just "didn't get" math.
I think the problem is more that good engineers are too successful. They have every incentive to remain an engineer and zero incentive to train the next generation. This has gone on for about two generations, which means that the pipeline of home-grown American talent is just about dry.
I would kinda like to teach. I come from a family with three generations of teachers on my mother's side. I like working with kids. But there is no possible way that I could rationalize giving up a six-figure Google job where I can get in to work at 11:00, the feed me, I get cool data to play with, and everyone sees my work, for a $30k/year teaching job where I work from 8:00 AM to 4:30 PM, have homework, and deal with parents who threaten to sue me.
I think a major difference between Asian cultures and here is that teaching is a high-status profession in Asia. Here, the assumption is that people become teachers because they can't get hired anywhere else, and they're paid accordingly. This becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, as everyone who can get hired elsewhere chooses to work elsewhere, and the only math/science teachers you get are the ones that can't hack it in industry or academia (& a couple saints that just don't want to work there, for any amount of money).
At least in India, many people become teachers "because they can't get hired anywhere else, and they're paid accordingly." This is particularly true in Engineering/Science/Mathematics.
Most teachers have zero industry experience, have never worked as engineers, have never done any significant engineering/science etc etc and do choose teaching because they couldn't hack in the industry. [except for a few really good teachers at say the IIT's - which have their share of terrible teachers - but you could find equivalent folks in say MIT]. As you said "(& a couple saints that just don't want to work there, for any amount of money)."
So maybe you are talking of China/other parts of Asia?
That said, I actually went to law school (Columbia) for one semester before dropping out and enrolling in a PhD program in engineering (at Berkeley). The law school is, of course, about 95% American, whereas in the Engineering school, I became very accustomed to being the only person in the room who spoke English as a first language.
I think it's great that Engineering is a profession where you are likely to work alongside people from all over the world. But I think it's bad that it's become(ing?) a profession where you're unusual if you're a native Californian in graduate programs with names like "The University of California".
I'll say this - in spite of all the hand-wringing, I don't see even the slightest commitment from Berkeley to bringing in more Americans. And as long as they can wave the magic wand and get more students from overseas, neither they or the employers who want to keep this pipeline will ever bother finding ways to get more Americans into the field.
As for law: yeah, they may be unhappy, but I earned 75K/year my first year out of Berkeley at Sun Micro. Kids from the law school were starting at $125-150K/yr.
I actually disagree that the Americans you mentioned can't learn math. I didn't take my first calculus class until I was 24 years old, and I got A's all the way through. The incentives just aren't there relative to other fields. And as long as we import hundreds of thousands of H1B workers ever decade, it won't be.
Now, we're getting a good sense of what happens when you destroy a homegrown profession and replace it with foreign nationals.
That's only for people coming out of top law schools and going into top corporate law firms. The engineering analogue would be a Stanford or MIT grad who works for Google for 3 years and then joins a well-funded startup. Considering that it's not unusual for people with 3 years experience at Google to pull in $130-140k including bonus, and someone else on-thread was saying that he knows lots of firms that'll gladly pay $150K+ for top engineering talent, and I don't think $125-150K is unreasonable for a top engineer.
The majority of law students - the ones that don't go to a big-name law school - often end up setting up a private practice or working for a boutique firm for much, much lower salaries. Small-town divorce attorneys often make only about $50K/year, according to some of the alums on that thread, and it sounded like lawyers at "boutique", non-big-name law firms pulled in about $80-90K.
Because I have family and friends who went to those schools and they made $120K starting salaries. I also have a cousin who went to probably the worst law school in the country and she made 80K straight out of school.
This is the key, really. Why should only engineering in general and computer programming in particular be "special"? Why isn't the US importing medical doctors (for example) hand over fist? There is a very deliberate attempt to treat programming as not one of the "professions" but as labour.
The idea is that depriving, say, China of doctors doesn't really accomplish anything except generate more sick Chinese people, which doesn't really pose a major strategic advantage to the US. The only incentive to import them is if there is a major shortage locally (and so far there isn't).
On the other hand, depriving China of engineers can give a significant competitive boost to the US. The more researchers and developers you import the higher chance you have that something that would've been invented in a competing country is invented here instead.
If the US is short of doctors and dentists - and it is, otherwise their salaries wouldn't be so high - then there's no economic reason not to import them.
Is it really good for the economy when a company is unable to hire 10 people, because of a "cap" that sounds like it was pulled out of a congressman's left ear? They market these restrictions as trying to "save U.S. jobs", but ironically the caps will kill U.S. jobs when whole companies fail to remain competitive.
Since the minimum requirement for an H1B is just a bachelor's degree, it seems hard to motivate that all those are essential. It seems the process could be improved by either ranking the applications by merit or instead of a quota establishing a higher minimum standard such that those accepted are really outstanding. Another alternative would be to simply uncap the category for those with US advanced degrees -- that cap truly makes no sense. (I should disclose that I'm biased here -- I was denied an H1B last year because of the quota.)
That said, none of that would help the person in the article. The simple change of letting H1B dependents work would fix that.
okay, all H1-B holders who want their applications held up for a year while a reasonable basis for comparison is accumulated, raise their hands
The idea is that each applicant is scored based on things such as English/French fluency (bonus points for both), educational background, field of expertise, etc.
You don't need to carefully pore over every case to do some reasonable level of ranking.
They're not arbitrary, they're just not aimed at a goal that you recognize.
Always remember that the first priority of a congress critter is to get re-elected.
- Typically do not quit their jobs (and fear losing them), because their next employer must be found quickly and be willing to sponsor their stay. If they cannot find such an employer, they must leave the country.
- Run a (small) risk every single time they travel that they will not be allowed back into the country, to some extent at the discretion of a border guard.
- Must jump through hoops just to have family members present, and there have been cases where stupid things happen (like wife is allowed in, but one of two children is not; or, the family members are granted entry at completely different times that may be months apart).
- Are charged huge fees for government forms and by the lawyers who are often necessary to prepare forms (costs which might be covered by their company, if they're lucky).
- Can wait years...and years...and years...for a green card, for no apparent reason. The government can be silent for many months, and only periodically ask for more information when the application reaches the next stage. Oh, and the information prepared in advance for each stage, such as a medical exam, can expire if they don't reach it soon enough.
Most of these steps, in my opinion, are not really "helping", they are just adding bureaucracy and causing unnecessary frustration for human beings who are trying to live their lives.
Something most Americans don't fully appreciate is just how bad their border situation is - power-tripping customs officers who will turn a non-citizen around for no reason at all. Unreasonable searches, rudeness, and downright being an asshole.
I cannot recall a single instance of crossing the US border where the customs officer was courteous. When I crossed via Vancouver airport, there was an elderly gentleman who had trouble walking, and was shuffling slowly up to the counter when called. The officer in charge berated him as he walked to the counter, and insulted his inability to walk.
This is what we, non-Americans, deal with when we visit your country. FIX THIS.
Consider that for many people this will be their first interaction with an American at the beginning of their trip, it should be a higher priority that these people behave themselves.
But sometimes when the immigrants(like me) have lived a major part of his youth life in a different culture and adjusted there with the society, people, etc, they tend to feel associated with the new country. (I think it all depends on the age you came to the country)
I think the US immigration system needs a new and improved modern look. I would not deny the fact that certain companies/people do exploit the H1-B Visa due to loopholes in it. This definitely brings a bad name to entire group and also puts into question the validity of the H1-B program and I am totally with my American Citizen's on that, but in certain situation they do need foreign talent. The H1-B program needs a fine tuning.
I think I have a better use for my startup capital than an immigration lawyer; plenty of good people here, I mean, after all, they only built the greatest economy in the world.
If any American wants to down-vote me for this, just go ahead and try to get a _job_ overseas. Your ass will be chewed by local taxes, foreigner taxes and nationalist laws. And I say this as a _recent_ U.S. national; I came here with just a carry-on bag and $50 when I was 16.
The failings of other, less-wise countries is not an excuse to fail along with them. They are xenophobic and protectionist, and turn away talent that can increase their nation's competitiveness... the US should not make that same mistake.
And keep in mind that a disproportionate number of big players who "built the greatest economy in the world" are themselves immigrants. Your argument that home-grown talent alone will suffice holds no water - historically the US has always relied on heavy talent import, and there is nothing wrong with this.
It's the same at every level of society.
The US attracted the best and the brightest. If you insist on sending them back because they are "immigrants" then the loss is not just theirs.From the article "Many innovators in Silicon Valley come from overseas; 42 percent of engineers with master’s degrees and 60 percent of those with engineering Ph.D.’s in the United States are foreign-born."
Do you know why Chinese and Indians population in Universities are increasing? Because in those cultures being a geek is cool, unlike in US. In China and US, the topper in the school is the super star unlike in US where it will be the college football captain. The toppers from such places come to US because the US universities are far ahead in higher education. But if you send these people back, this lead in education will slowly evaporate as the best students go back to their country instead of staying on and becoming entrepreneurs and professors.
i. It hampers my capability to jump jobs to risky startups, because if that startup goes bust, I need to find a job in 2 months to stay in the country. Especially with a recessionary season, it adds to the risk while your existing employer is pretty strong.
ii. I am always looking for avenues to work on Ideas, and I do that too. But, because I need to be employed to maintain my Visa Status, I can only devote my evenings and weekends.
iii. I am also worried about the Laws (Immigration and other) that may prevent me from having my own venture etc.
I have been in the US for close to 10 years(8 years now and 2 years when I was a Kid). So, I have lived most of my decision making, understanding the world, ups/downs of life here in the US and I feel really connected to this country and really love it. I even pay good amount of Tax dollars plus work for a US company that works towards the growth of the US economy even in this downturn. But my fate still lies on the Immigration Policy.
Another point I wanted to mention was about my experience in College. In my freshman year I realized hanging out with kids that went to Highschool here that being Smart in school equates to being a Geek, which is not considered Hip and Cool. On the contrary back home in India where I grew up, being smart(not necessarily Geek) was considered Cool and everyone wants to be friends with the Smart Kid. Luckily, it worked out good for me as I had a solid academic background from India and then had cool friends out here.
The point that the article (and other posters here) are making is that you should be allowing these people to wander Silicon Valley looking for jobs. Instead of treating them as temps who must leave the country shortly, they need to be welcomed and given the opportunity to become Americans.
He chose to move to Canada because his WIFE was not legal in the U.S. and she didn't have any skills to import.
From talking to my other friends with startups in the Bay Area it is apparent that there are not enough good engineers here. I had a conversation last weekend with one of my friends who always struggles to find good Ruby engineers, even at above market prices, and using every recruitment method available.
As the founder of a company originally started to help companies hire technical talent I've seen this firsthand. Everyone is frustrated with recruiters piping them lots of unqualified resumes, Dice, Monster, and Craigslist also provide high volume, but often low quality. Even the niche boards are underperforming.
If there are really "lots of great programmers" in the US where are they? I know a lot of companies around here who would gladly pay $150k+ for a truly "great" programmer, if they could only find them.
Maybe part of the problem is the vast difference between "decent" and "great" in terms of on-the-job performance and the unwillingness of many companies around here to settle for less.
You're so wrong. The whole purpose of bar exams and similar certification requirements in most trades is to limit supply. Almost every profession does this in one way or the other, except engineers.
People say this all the time but $150K is a rare salary for a programmer. You have to work at Google for years to be paid that much as a base salary. If a company is offering $150K but can't hire anyone it usually means the company sucks. I.e. it's an overfunded VC time bomb, a boring telecom/security job or something semi-shady.
</telecom-related startup founder>
Well then, doesn't it see that perhaps he is creating his own limitation by focusing on Ruby?
Just because a particular language may have too few experts in the USA does not mean there's a shortage of qualified programmers in other languages! I'm an exceptional programmer in the language I know best, but it is not Ruby. Your friend would not consider hiring me because of this too I'll bet -- yet I could probably build his site twice as fast as the best Ruby programmer.
You live with the limitations you impose upon yourself.
I really have a hard time telling if you're trolling or serious.
I don't know how exactly you define exceptional, but if you are indeed exceptional in the sense of being in the top 5% (say) of developers in your chosen language, and assuming your language is not some forgotten relic from the 60's, then you should be beating off employers every day.
If I wanted a game written in Java (for whatever reason) and John Carmack wanted to take the job but he knew only C/C++ (but was ok with learning java) I couldn't imagine turning him down because I have Joe Blow's cv showing 10 years experience in java. If you are really exceptional in your language, I doubt someone would turn you down just because you'll take a couple of weeks to pick up ruby.
Moving on, I wonder how came to the conclusion you are "exceptional"? This isn't a mocking question. I am just curious because even though I am a good programmer (if I do say so myself), and I have improved a few quanta of magnitude in the last few years, I always find that there are many people much better than me,no matter what level of proficiency I attain.
Maybe I just don't work hard enough but I am very interested in knowing at what point one would classify oneself as exceptional (vs other people making that judgment).
What have you achieved in your language of choice that made you conclude this? Maybe you have some code out there we can look at?
"Your friend would not consider hiring me because of this too I'll bet -- yet I could probably build his site twice as fast as the best Ruby programmer."
This doesn't compute. The best ruby programmer in the world (whoever he/she is) should be massively productive. What enables you to get a 100% boost as compared to him?
EDIT: On judging oneself exceptional. There is a local legend that goes like this.
Once upon a time, long ago, a prince told his father(the king) that he wanted to become a martial arts expert and an exceptional warrior. So the king apprenticed the prince to the best martial artist in the kingdom. The master was a greet teacher and the prince was very talented and diligent, and he threw himself into the training. The king got regular reports from the teacher that the prince was steadily advancing in his proficiency.
A year later, the prince came home for a holiday and the king asked him how his training was going. he replied " I've learned a lot. I could take on a 100 opponents at a time and win, easy". The king said " That isn't good enough. You need more training"
The next year the king asked the same question and the prince replied " well I've learned a lot more and I've changed my estimate. 100 people may be a little tough but I can take on 50 and win" and the king just shook his head sadly and asked him to train more.
Every year after that the king would ask the same question and the number of people the prince thought he could fight simultaneously kept coming down till after many years he replied "I think I could handle one opponent, maybe, but if possible I'd rather fight a duel only when absolutely necessary, because you never now what the result will be. There is always the possibility that your opponent totally outmatches you."
And the king replied " Now your training is complete". (And by then the prince was indeed a deadly fighter, the best in the kingdom).
fwiw.
They already have jobs that they're happy with.
edit: also, if there's really a 10x difference in productivity between the worst and the best programmers, isn't a truly great programmer theoretically worth more like 300-400k a year, rather than 150k?