Teen: I Am Not the Boston Marathon Bomber
news.yahoo.com
news.yahoo.com
"Barhoun's younger brother, who declined to be identified..."
Seriously? First of all, the kid is under 18, so you shouldn't be identifying him anyway without his parents' permission, but second, you just identified him.
Here's the NYPost cover where he was featured: http://s3.amazonaws.com/dk-production/images/28618/large/o-N...
And this is why vigilante justice sucks. I'm just glad that some nutcase in real life didn't go off on him and he went to the police himself to clear his name before anything bad happened to him.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/bronx/bx_idiots_beat_up_a...
Ironically NY Post was one of the "news" sources driving up the hysteria and publishing these photos.
On the day of the bombing, they were reporting that the bomber had already been arrested. The day after the bombing, they had a picture on their cover of a backpack that was supposedly the bomb... except it wasn't. Today, they had a picture of two middle eastern looking people, who had nothing to do with the bombing. This is par the course for the NY Post.
My favorite though, is when I used to do political work, the NY Post would show up to large events, set up a quick photoshoot with paid actors, then leave, and whatever they staged a picture of would be the next day's front page.
Fuck the post.
Just as the WSJ published about people in custody, the lesson is clear: Do not bother listening to any Rupert Murdock publication for news.
The WSJ should just stick to finance, and the NYP should stick to whatever it is that it does well. (Remind me: What was it that the NYP does well?)
Amen. Everyone, just refuse to follow a link to a Murdock website. Daily Mail. NY Post. WSJ. Are there others?
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/murdoch-block/moep...
They optimize for units sold, not precise reporting.
In addition, the subreddit have clearly outlined their motivation here in this post - http://www.reddit.com/r/findbostonbombers/comments/1ck5hl/me...
In this case, it is more a case of lazy and irresponsible journalism than kangaroo justice.
I watched this going on all day yesterday. Certainly, there were many counterarguments and so on, but frankly the Reddit thread was a confused mess, with the same stuff getting posted over and over again, no coherent plan on organizing files by resolution or time, and no schema for IDing people, leading to multiple subthreads like 'I think this guy looks super-fishy' 'Which guy there's 100 people in that photo, who do you mean?' 'In the middle, on the left, once you've seen him you can't un-see him.' I don't think the Reddit community or subreddit moderators were at fault, but their search were nowhere near as well organized as you suggest.
What happened in the case of the runner kids is that another forum, AR15.com (dedicated to gun enthusiasts, as you might guess) pretty much decided that these two guys were guilty (based largely on the early photo speculations showing backpacks looking large enough to hold a pressure cooker). then one of the members decided to post on the Facebook page of the teenager in the blue tracksuit, which was then noticed by a Reddit user who was also watching the AR15.com thread (not me).
The teen saw the post on his Facebook page, stated that he had nothing to do with it and immediately contacted law enforcement; At this point the subReddit moderator went through and cleaned up the old threads and so forth. IIRC the 'non-suspect' went to a court building or a police station (wherever the investigation HQ is) straight away, and later returned to post an update on his FB page. The ar15.com folks meanwhile ostracized the person who had posted the link on the FB page and convinced themselves that they're all targets now (that community is heavily invested in the idea that it should be Muslim terrorists, presumably because they're feeling sensitive over the gun control issue).
I don't mean this as a criticism of the Reddit folks, who were doing their best. I'm posting this more to observe that social media in general does not do that great of job at this kind of thing. EDIT: I think social media and crowds can do a great job of that, but it needs pretty strict.active moderation and a gameplan at the outset. That proceduralism slows down people who want to dive right in and help straight away, but it also helps to eliminate false positives.
All we are saying is that Reddit, 4chan and others may help the FBI if they care to watch these threads. That might or might not be helpful but it can't hurt as long as the FBI isn't willingly looking away, which might then trigger the vigilante action.
a) I can't speak for 4chan, but the Reddit thread has been full of counterarguments, doubts, discussions of likely innocence as well as guilt. Some of the most upvoted threads are all about Devil's Advocacy and finding evidence of innocence: http://www.reddit.com/r/findbostonbombers/comments/1cjc30/de... With that, similar threads, the rules imposed, it's following exactly the textbook approach to avoid groupthink.
b) Meanwhile, we have the case studies of Richard Jewell, Steven Hatfill, the Central Park Five, among others. Those were not cases of "vigilante justice." Those happened because no one bothered to check the math of the authorities.
The internet can be an unruly mob, sure, but it's simply inaccurate to claim the internet can ONLY be an unruly mob. Or why are any of us even here?
And all that nuance is immediately lost once someone posts the photo on Facebook or Twitter. Unfortunately, that's the issue at hand.
Some may argue against this. Some may use the internet to claim that internet discussions are harmful, but not without a certain degree of inconsistency between their words and their actions.
A natural response might be, "Yes, but I'm RIGHT, of course I should speak..." but the trouble is, no one knows whether they're right or not without submitting their ideas to the crowd for a full and proper vetting.
Noticing that someone looks suspicious in a picture and reporting it to the proper authorities (preferably a division thereof known for evenhandedness) so that they can look at all sides of the issue is reasonable. Someone has to handle crimes, and whoever that someone is will always be human. Noticing that someone looks suspicious and posting their picture on Facebook with an accusatory tagline is entirely indefensible.
It's bad enough when their are no proper authorities.
Even if 99 comments out of 100 on Reddit or whatever other forum are doubtful, there is still the fact that his name has been publicized incorrectly - which would not have happened in the absence of a public witch hunt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monsters_Are_Due_on_Maple_S...
The umbrella man is my favorite falsely accused bystander - I mean he looked SO GUILTY!
Citation needed. I saw no such declaration on reddit -- just that he seemed to be one of the dozens of somewhat interesting people worth looking at a little more closely.
It was the mass media that took this and turned it into "OMG REDDIT SAYS THEY FOUND THE BOMBER!"
I guess I am proof. And so is 'jaredsohn (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5562975 -- "Closer up view of person in OP (includes shot of face): http://i.imgur.com/BBxplgk.jpg " -- it was his interpretation from Reddit comments that Salah was one possible suspect).
There's a lot of truth to 'untog's comment up above that no matter the nuance and diligence being practiced, Reddit is still an open and public forum and no amount of nuance is worth anything when stuff leaks out of Reddit.
It's a huuuuuuge backpedal to go all the way from "reddit thought this guy was the bomber" to "one person on HN saw a reddit comment and it made him think that the guy was one possible suspect".
> no amount of nuance is worth anything when stuff leaks out of Reddit
Sure, but then the blame needs to be placed at the feet of the person who misrepresents the reddit post -- not on reddit itself.
Speaking of which, misrepresenting reddit is exactly what your comment at the top of this thread is doing. You should edit it.
I've (reluctantly) edited the comment.
You're absolutely right about vigilante justice, but there's a big difference between that (i.e., playing judge, jury, and executioner) and public evidence-review assistance (i.e., playing forensic investigator).
This widely circulated spreadsheet [3] contains a "suspect summary", not a list of "somewhat interesting people".
1: http://www.reddit.com/r/boston/comments/1cf5wp/2013_boston_m...
2: http://www.reddit.com/r/boston/comments/1cf5wp/2013_boston_m...
3: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AgtCl8YvqiBodEl0...
The spreadsheet has 10+ people on it. You'd have to be willfully misinterpreting it to an absurd degree to conclude that reddit thought they all were simultaneously guilty.
Either you got there late or weren't paying attention. There are no shortage of people in this thread and the one I linked who witnessed that thread getting out of hand.
>The spreadsheet has 10+ people on it. You'd have to be willfully misinterpreting it to an absurd degree to conclude that reddit thought they all were simultaneously guilty.
I have no idea what kind of point you're trying to make here.
Where's the "vigilante justice" you speak of? I see crowdsourced investigation and a newspaper that, more or less, made something up (that the feds seek the two men).
If we have a terrorist group claiming responsibility and showing new photos with the terrorists in another country in the next 24-48 hours, the FBI failed. It doesn't matter if we eventually drone strike them, they failed and should look in to crowd sourcing the photo investigation in the future.
The fact that highly irresponsible news agencies printed those photos is completely separate from reddit and 4Chan talking about it.
Ideally there should be an FBI sanctioned system which allows this type of work.
For those that point out the man the FBI accused in Atlanta, keep in mind, that was way, way, way more drawn out than a 24 hour period.
Now, I'll also admit, I could be wrong, maybe they don't find them, maybe they don't post photos of who they think it is and these guys aren't cleared by the FBI, maybe it turns out that they are harassed etc.
The internet is new, and I feel like we can figure out a way to do this the right way.
Sounds vaguely like how the US justifies torture.
Worse still, it justifies terrorism too.
A terrorist will argue that sacrifice is worth it to achieve their goals, which they see as justice in their terms.
We have to be better than that, or there is literally no point bothering. We just do their work for them. People say Islamic terrorists hate American freedoms. So how come Americans give them up so easily citing the likes of Islamic terrorism? It just goes round and round, bomb, less freedom, bomb, less freedom, until you have less freedom than they have.
Madness. Some one had to stop the spiral.
Only the raw classification and identification data is valuable here. The feedback cycles created by public discourse and news media are terribly flawed and often very harmful. It would be much better to use an automated back end to process the data, seek further verification and then ultimately bring it to the attention of human investigators.
"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer",
...as expressed by the English jurist William Blackstone in his seminal work, Commentaries on the Laws of England, published in the 1760s. It is worth note that the actual numbers are not generally seen as important, so much as the idea that the State should not cause undue or mistaken harm "just in case". Historically, the details of the ratio change, but the message that government and the courts must err on the side of innocence is constant.
The New York Post is only useful for insulation for the homeless. Luckily, this is also its primary use.
Listen to NPR, read the New York Times, AP Wire. Stay the hell away from TV and all News Corp. publications.
No one arrested him, fired him, threatened him, or tried to hurt him. Even to a kid, I can't imagine this impacting your life too much. If he were traumatized, he'd not be allowing everyone to use his name.
Again, I don't approve of this kind of speculation, but they always labeled their work as speculation and discouraged people from acting on it. I think we might just be over-reacting.
"the 2 guys been getting shit of calls, and they are scared like hell"
http://www.reddit.com/r/findbostonbombers/comments/1cjghc/4c...
AKA the "No offense, but..." of Internet witch-hunts.
Citation needed... Far tamer acts have elicited all of the above when put in front of the Internet Hate Machine (which now includes Reddit).
Remember Adria Richards? Yeah, she didn't kill anyone and she still got direct threats of being raped and killed.
The individual here hasn't been arrested or fired, but you can bet your ass he has been threatened and intimidated in ways neither of us can even imagine. The level of cruelty internet strangers have repeatedly demonstrated to others can best be described as "unquantifiably high".
> "Again, I don't approve of this kind of speculation, but they always labeled their work as speculation and discouraged people from acting on it."
This is a cop-out, and has about as much legitimacy as those "no copyright infringement intended" descriptions under pirated YouTube videos.
Everybody knows currently that this guy is not suspitious at all and police will be glued to him 25 hours a day in the next weeks, but... what if the true bombers had seeing the photos of the guy with the big red circle on 4chan before his declaration?
What a golden opportunity for the ba[dg] guys could be... They only need to reach this boy, with name graciously provided by the stupid press, before the police gets him. Two minutes in facebook and they have the direction. Later, "the main suspect commits suicide" at home, "solved" crime and jail avoided... what's the next target?
Please STOP putting people inside a circle... just now! Don't publish the real name of a "suspect" with big uppercase letters! This should be strictly forbiden. Just give a copy of the photos to the police, is as simple as that.
This is such a freaking waste of time. He had to go clear his name, and the cops had to listen to him.
it doesn't matter what you call it or what the intent was; you cannot argue that this kid is clearly shaken up and it's affected his family deeply.
In this case, same thing.
> The crowd came up with a theory, that theory was sent to the authorities, and the suspect went to the police preemptively.
And you really have no idea why this process might have caused Salah Barhoun to experience genuine fear for his safety and the safety of his family? Not to mention all the anxiety any normal, thinking person experiences when having to deal unexpectedly with both the national media and the police?
When people use the term "mob justice" they are usually referring to something less benign than the public collaborating online to provide the FBI with the tips they're asked the public for.
>And you really have no idea why this process might have caused Salah Barhoun to experience genuine fear for his safety and the safety of his family?
Anyone finding themselves in the spotlight unexpectedly is going to be stressed. He's doing the right thing by going to the authorities. His name will then likely be quickly cleared.
We're using the term advisedly. It's the interpretation of events that there seems to be some disagreement about.
> Anyone finding themselves in the spotlight unexpectedly is going to be stressed. He's doing the right thing by going to the authorities. His name will then likely be quickly cleared.
You completely ignored the question, and it's an important one. Do you really, sincerely not understand how being fingered as a suspect in a very public way, in America, in 2013, in a terrorist bombing case, will cause a dark-skinned guy with a foreign name to experience well-founded and reasonable fear for his safety and the safety of his family?
I don't know how much further I can unpack this for you. "The subreddit" (whatever the hell that means) engaged in a small - perhaps accidental, in the way a lot of what a mob does is accidental - act of terror in a time of terror. Good job with that. It would be nice if they actually acknowledged it, but I expect they'll soon just move on to putting words over pictures of cats.
"Posting on the Internet" is not.
The system worked, at the cost of some inconvenience. Sometimes the police release the photo of a "person of interest" themselves, and that person does much the same thing.
[Sorry for being unclear. I knew he came forward. I was saying that that happening was predictable.]
"Salah Barhoun, 17, said he went to the police yesterday to clear his name after he found himself tagged in pictures online"
I realise that without context it could be ambiguous, but since even the headline indicates that the guy has already come forward, I doubt jere was unaware of that.
Oh, the irony here.
EDIT- they just did so in the press conference, at least everyone who was in a particular location.
What will it take to bring reporting standards back up to anywhere near their pre-social media levels?
For example, why can't the FCC start handing out massive fines ($x million) to news agencies that report false or inaccurate information? Of course that's not scalable but hopefully it could act as a deterrent and make people think twice before they post something. If the FCC can fine CBS $550,000 for allowing Janet Jackson's nipple to be exposed on national TV, you'd think they could do the same when major news companies' rushed reporting ends up ruining people's lives.
People's lives are being destroyed time and again by well-intentioned but misguided individuals and companies disseminating false information. Is there really nothing that can be done?
The second part is that the FCC does not have "truth" in its charter, but it does have decency legislation. Although a recent ABC case might make it impossible for the FCC to repeat the CBS Superbowl fine.
Put yourself in this situation. Your picture is being plastered all over the news and Facebook, you are being called a suspect in a brutal bombing case, your family see your image and immediately assume the worse, your employer sees the photo and you lose your job and you weren't even involved. The media doing what they seem to do best in this day and age: report now, fact check later.
I don't know the answer other than some network could make a decent business out of only airing confirmed facts and actually giving us a view of the scene without the pundits. Actually interview people there and skip the "inside sources".
Who am I kidding, its all about what KK feels about the event.
The world is a shittier place with him and his BS propaganda outlets in it.