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Comment by np422 | Hacker News Reader

There is a high probability that this is false accusations, just "because we can" from the prosecutors ...

I'm from Sweden and I'm very sad to say that I don't consider Sweden to fulfil all the requirements for rule of law and legal security.

Even if he is acquitted from the crimes in a trial he will have spent a few months arrested and we don't have a bail system here in Sweden.

Both European committee for the prevention of torture and Amnesty International frequently criticize Sweden for the conditions for arrestees ... Yepp, that's where Gotfried is being kept locked up...

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Have you even read the indictment? A casual look seems to indicate that the investigation is very thorough. (See another post here for link)

And if anyone is a flight risk who would never be granted bail it is Gottfried, He has already fled a sentence once - that is not to say that being in a 'häkte' is fun or humane, depending on circumstances.

Finally:

>I'm from Sweden and I'm very sad to say that I don't consider Sweden to fulfil all the requirements for rule of law and legal security. [Citation Neeeded]

>> I'm from Sweden and I'm very sad to say that I don't consider Sweden to fulfil all the requirements for rule of law and legal security. [Citation Neeeded]

What kind of "citation" would you expect? The Swedish government to tell you they're dirty?

I would like citations on the fact that Sweden doesn't fulfill the requirement for rule of law and legal security

A random google search revealed this site: http://worldjusticeproject.org/rule-law-index-map

A quick look suggests that the rule of law in Sweden is among the highest in the world. But if you got any sources on the contrary I would be happy to read them.

>A quick look suggests that the rule of law in Sweden is among the highest in the world. But if you got any sources on the contrary I would be happy to read them.

Those are just for general cases -- a median of government/police behavior. (Not to mention a lot of those are reported or based on data by government bodies themselves).

Doesn't say squat about specific people targeted by some agency (as examples, unwanted agitators, etc).

The "rule of law" is great in the US too in general, but you have people like J.E Hoover break all the rules in the book, or Senator McCarthy make his own rules, etc. Or you have the government maintain a whole prison, with torture, no due process, no trials, etc at all, outside the country (Guantanamo).

The treatment of law in general cases is not at all the same as the treatment of law in "targeted" cases.

html version of the document in english via google translate:

http://trotsky.github.io/AM_52124/

Since he was already sentanced there was little need from a security perspective to keep him in 'häkte' for three months. Instead they could have just transfered him to the prison where he was to serve his previous sentence (as they eventually did).

Amnesty has repeatedly criticized Sweden for too harsh conditions in the "häkte", where remand prisoners are kept in isolation for extended periods of time.

For some cases prisoners are kept in isolation well over one year. This is a form of low-intensity torture and causes measurable harm to a person's brain and personality - PTSD being one of the more common residual damages done. And remember, people kept in "häkte" remand prison are suspects, still to be treated as innocent, and frequently exonerated by the courts. They still suffer the harm from the extended isolation.

Sweden in many ways have a good prison system but the extensive and common use of isolation by prosecutors is really bad and a disgrace.

Swedish authorities are obviously out to get him, if he is kept under arrest he won't be able to subract that time from any prison ruling in another case - even if he is acquitted.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/sweden/report-2012

I really envy you naive notion on Swedish legal security.

Take a look at our modern history. Confiscation of not yet published newspapers during world war II. The German troop transports, the extradition of Baltic citizens, the IB-matter, forced sterilization. We really have a history of throwing out all legal principles whenever public authorities want to.

In recent times, Thomas Quick, the extradition of two Egyptian citizen without any due process, REVA, perhaps you remember "#gategate" where LEO got acquitted, the "lilac envelopes" our minister of justice wanted to use spread shame to suspects, treatment of acquitted persons in the da Costa case.. I could go on for quite some time with this, there are a lot of examples to choose from.

Just the fact that we have politicians appointing jury members ("nämndemän") is a hint to where Swedish legal security stands. Jury members that in the majority of cases fails to answer basic legal questions correct. The entire chain of courts "förvaltningsrätt" is a very troublesome construction to say the least ...

The US internment camps? Waterboarding? Gitmo?

I think it's often enough for a legal system that strives for perfection rather than one that is always perfect. I do not think the latter has ever existed.

GWOT has been taken a few steps to far.

TSA and DHS are true examples how the terrorist actually have won, we now fear them so much we have changed our ways and our open/free society. We, as in the western / developed world.

And no matter how much I try I can't understand how we won over the Soviet block back in the days still keeping an open society. Back then we pointed fingers at them and called them the bad guys for massive surveillance of citizens. And yes, terror was a integral part of the cold war, red army faction etc ...

Out of interest, would you prefer to face Swedish justice or the US system?

Penalties in the Swedish justice system are humane. Even serious crimes only renders 5-10 years of prison time. Conditions in prisons are far better than the US. Prisoners have private rooms, gym and better food than elderly citizens.

The US system have far too severe penalties. Sentences of 10-100 years are now common. Conditions in prisons are horrible with rampant drug abuse, violence and even murders.

However, the Swedish prosecutors and courts are banana republic quality. Look at the Assange parody for an example. A Swedish prosecutor may invent almost anything as evidence, even a photoshopped screenshot - because ANYTHING can be submitted as evidence in a Swedish court. There is even a recent drug case where the Swedish police illegaly put GPS surveillance on a suspected drug trafficker. The court recognizes the police did this illegaly, but the GPS data is still allowed as evidence. This is called "fri bevisföring" in Swedish. The courts are made up by politically chosen representatives, not a jury, which further contributes to the banana republic sentencing.

So - justice is more blind in Sweden, but she is slapping you on the wrist, instead of decapitating you.

Do you mean less blind? Justice wearing a blindfold implies impartiality and fairness.

I do. Thanks.

Yes, Sweden has "fri bevisföring". And why not? If evidence proves that someone is a criminal, it is not less true it was retrieved by controversial means. "Fri bevisföring" means that the court makes the decision whether the evidence is valid, based on circumstances in the case in question.

Where would you draw the line? Why not simply monitor and track everyone everywhere all the time because hey they if they did something wrong then you'd be good to go with the proof... and we all know if you don't do anything criminal you don't have anything to hide...

Because it means that restrictions on search and seizure aren't worth the paper they're written on. If you're a police officer, why wouldn't you illegally search or track someone if you think it'll help you get a conviction? There's fuck-all chance you're going to get in trouble for it, your bosses and the prosecutors care just as much about nailing the guy as you do.

"The courts are made up by politically chosen representatives, not a jury, which further contributes to the banana republic sentencing."

As it is in the US, too. There aren't exactly elections for Supreme Court Justices.

My knowledge of how the US systems works in practise is limited, but as draugadrotten says in another comment - the penal system of Sweden is in general preferable to US.

But when it comes to legal security it really is much harder choice but I think I would prefer to face the US justice system in all "normal" criminal cases.

If the word terrorism was anywhere near the case I'm not so sure any more.

"Amnesty International frequently criticize Sweden for the conditions for arrestees ... Yepp, that's where Gotfried is being kept locked up..."

Apropos of anything else, and without discounting the positives of the work they do, this is one of Amnesty's raison d'etre's - there is not a country on Earth that they do not criticize in this regard.

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