Hacker News Reader

Comment by exabrial | Hacker News Reader

Java is a great choice for CS. It's similarity to C/C++ is handy for those who need to transition high performance computing or move to work on low level systems (kernels, drivers, embedded systems, etc). The JVM is also a great target for learning about virtual machines, since the JVM itself is quite an amazing virtual machine by it's own regard. The JVM can also be used to study a 'real life' implementation of stack machines, and Java bytecode can be used as a [gentler] introduction to assembly.

So yes, while you're startup may choose Python or Ruby or the latest language of the day, Java is a great system to teach a lot of fundamental computer science topics with.

Besides, Google uses it.

View on HN

So yes, while you're startup may choose Python or Ruby or the latest language of the day, Java is a great system to teach a lot of fundamental computer science topics with.

Are you implying that Python (1991) and Ruby (1995) are some sort of flavor of the day compared to Java (1995)? :-)

    import java.util.LinkedList;
    import java.util.List;

    public class Pets {
        private List<String> pets;
        
        public Pets() {
            this.pets = new LinkedList<String>();
            this.pets.add("cat");
            this.pets.add("dog");
            this.pets.add("bird");
        }
    }

or whatever may be great for transitioning people to C++ later on (not exactly where all the jobs are...), but

    pets = ["cat", "dog", "bird"]

is probably a gentler introduction for elementary school students.

Gentler for a weekend hacker, but not for a student. Java is verbose for a reason - safety and reliability. Things enterprises value.

Students need to learn what is most pervasive in the field they plan to enter. That being Java. Starting them out on a "lite" version of a programming language simply because it is easier is just setting them up for failure.

I don't agree with the Java hate (why not teach kids to use Java? it's rather condescending if you think they can't learn it), but I will say: having learned to program on my own, I found it both easy and rewarding (lots of immediate, rapid growth and feedback) learning with Python for a few weeks before getting into Java. For some people, and maybe kids are NOT this group (but the group exists), the initial syntax barrier for the complete novice is much more intimidating in Java than it is in Python (or Ruby). I mean, arguably even C has an easier-to-grok-for-the-total-noob 'Hello, World!' than Java...

[insert examples of runnable 'Hello, World!' and 'Hello, <name>!' programs in Python v Ruby v Java here]

Thus, anyone who learns a first language other than Java is setting himself up for failure?

My first language was Basic on an Atari 800. My second was C++. I've made a respectable career from programming since then, in both serious and "lite" languages alike, including Java. I seem to have avoided these dire consequences. :-)

List<String> pets = Arrays.asList("cat", "dog", "bird");

You were saying?

It's telling that you feel that is actually a counter example.

> List<String> pets = Arrays.asList("cat", "dog", "bird");

Yeah...

This is a language that has its (very large) niche... education is not in that niche. Not out of merit anyway.

C++ comes in second behind java in terms of jobs according to stats from indeed: http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java%2C+C%2B%2B%2C+C%23%2C... . It might not be the new hotness, but there's still plenty of work for C and C++ programmers.

The point is not jobs, the point is going from zero to coding without scaring too many people off.

List<String> pets = Arrays.asList("cat", "dot, "bird");

Bad usage does not equal bad language.

This is aimed at elementary and high school students, not at CS students. Java may be an acceptable choice for introduction to programming in CS programs, but that is not the purpose of that software which aims to introduce programming, not computer science.

CS _is_ programming. Just more in-depth.

> CS _is_ programming. Just more in-depth.

CS to Software Engineering to Programming is as Physics to Aerospace Engineering to Aircraft Maintenance

Related, but not the same thing.

CS teaches the fundamental theories that form the mathematical basis of programming. It is true, to be a mediocre programmer you only need a few intro lessons or just a couple weekend hackathons, but to master it you need that theoretical CS background which covers it much more in depth.

Substitute technical drawing for aircraft maintenance and I would probably agree with you.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com