Comment by enraged_camel | Hacker News Reader

Comment by enraged_camel | Hacker News Reader

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I occasionally think about how a doctor will be able to work really anywhere in the country and be guaranteed a very comfortable six figure salary (at the minimum)

I would contest the "very comfortable" part. For one thing, the training and education a doctor has to go through is an order of magnitude more intense - and it is expensive as hell[1]. For another, after med school doctors continue to work like crazy. My parents, who are in their late 50s and early 60s, still work 12 hours a day on a regular basis, and have to consume entire journals/periodicals and travel for international conferences just to stay on top of new things.

Among the hundred or more doctors I personally know of among my family's circle of friends and acquaintences, only one or two live "comfortably," by working a few days a week and making a ton of money. But that's because they:

a) have hyper-specialized so that they are one of the few experts in their sub-field b) live in a geographic area where they can charge a ton for their services

Compared to this, a software engineer making a low six figure salary lives a very comfortable life. AND software is much less location-dependent, since you can work remotely (unlike doctors).

[1]A software engineer goes to college for four years and then gets a job as a programmer. In stark contrast, a doctor though has to do four years of undergrad, four years of med school after that, and then three to seven years of residency. If they want to become highly specialized? Two to three years of fellowship after residency.

If your parents are doctors, I will gladly admit you probably know more about this than I do. So it would be silly for me to try to contest everything you wrote. However, I do have a few points:

> it is expensive as hell

It is incredibly expensive, but there are a few points to make here:

* $150-200k are the minimum salaries for doctors in many areas. Certain specialists can make $300-450k anywhere in the country. I'm sure a select few make far more even than that, but then again a select few software developers are billionaires, so perhaps we'd best steer the discussion away from the best of the best here, otherwise it just gets silly.

* There are army scholarships which eliminate the debt entirely. The catch is you have to work as an army doctor for several years after residency, and the pay there is less than civilian doctors make (although still a lot, even in cheap areas).

* Let's say a medical student goes into $300k of debt (which is an overestimate for most cases). The difference in cost between a nice house in San Francisco and a nice house in a small town is far more than $300k. So in a long run, the doctor who chooses to work in a small town can still come out on top--and with a greater salary as well once the debt is paid off.

> My parents, who are in their late 50s and early 60s, still work 12 hours a day on a regular basis, and have to consume entire journals/periodicals and travel for international conferences just to stay on top of new things.

It would seem to me that this is not much different from many lesser paying jobs in the software industry, even (in fact, especially) in hot spots like Silicon Valley.

> software is much less location-dependent, since you can work remotely

That is the hope, anyway.

You can make good money as a developer anywhere in the U.S. What you'll run into outside of the tech hubs is that it's much harder to find interesting work, but it does exist.

There are a lot of professions that pay much better than writing software, that is clear, despite our massive egos we must admit that (unless you work for one of the few tech companies that can pay exorbitantly, but usually then you are sacrificing the rest of your life). If you want to make $300k+ your best bet is to be a really good salesperson. It probably has the best ratio of low education costs / high potential salary.

It exists all over the place. Small and medium businesses all over the country use old legacy systems that need to be upgraded and maintained. The hourly rates are insane for this kind of work, because it's work no one else wants to do. I had a friend who made an incredible living for himself just maintaining old programs written in COBOL, or re-writing small custom applications in Python or some other modern language so they could upgrade their OS.

Everyone wants the "cool" job building websites and consumer facing apps in Rails and Node, and so they all compete for those $120k developer jobs here in San Francisco. No one is competing to add a new input line to an old COBOL program at a factory outside of Detroit that actually makes something.

San Francisco and New York are where people to go to write software for the internet, and internet connected things, but most software running today that powers small industry and manufacturing, at least in the US, is old and disconnected. Maybe they manufacture soap or water bottles, who knows. Pretty much any small company that has "Since 19xx" anywhere near their logo is probably in need of help somewhere. I used to work in an industrial park with no less than two dozen of these kinds of companies. Not once did a software engineer, or firm, or anyone drop in, and yet I know that pretty much every business there had an aging system in need if upgrades or repair. Some move to turnkey solutions, but most need something a little custom because they have custom machinery somewhere in the building.

Doctors don't start out with $150-200k. Remember that they have to go through residency first, during which they make $40-60k. Which may sound decent, but when you realize they have to work 80+ hours AND with a ton of debt, it's actually pretty dismal.

Even after that though, they make around 125-175k. Most doctors do not start making over 200k until ten or more years of practice. And again, that's with around 1500-1900 hours per year, which is considerably more than most software engineers.

1500-1900 hours per year is considerably more than most software engineers? Are you sure you haven't miscalculated somewhere along the way to derive that?

Assuming we're talking about the US, I just don't see how that assertion can hold water. 2000 hours per year is a widely-held rule of thumb for "full time" employment - 40 hours a week * 50 work weeks per year. 1500 hours means you average a 30 hour work week or take a tremendous amount of vacation - neither of which sound anything like the employment situations for "most software engineers."

Sorry, I fat-fingered it. I meant 2500-2900 hours per year.

I don't want to nit pick, but even 2500 hours a year is only 52-53 hours a week with 4 weeks off for vacation every year. Use the 2900 figure and you're still just barely over 60 with a month for vacation. Not a bad deal to make ~4x the median US salary.

I understand what you're saying though. It's a lot "easier" to go to school for four years, make $90-120k and have $0-40k in student debt than it is to go to school for a decade, make $125-175k and have $80-150k in student debt. But truthfully, when you have that kind of buying power you can live like a student for just two more years and completely pay off your debt (or very close to it). Software developers usually don't have that kind of buying power. Outside of the Valley and NYC an entry-level developer may only make $30k a year. Even a $200-300/mo student loan payment at that income is tight.

Yeah, I meant those numbers to be post-residency.

$125k may not seem like much to anyone on here used to Silicon Valley prices. But that's more than my parents paid for their very nice two-story home with a massive backyard (large enough for a pool, a large shed, a fort, a kennel, and then plenty of open space to spare). My parents' home was big enough that they had a reputation for being rich in my hometown as I grew up even though their combined income was about $80k.

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