Comment by akg_67 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by akg_67 | Hacker News Reader

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"I don't see the same enthusiasm towards tech and startup in Toronto that I see here in The Valley."

Having tried establishing my startup in Toronto before, I fully agree with your statement. I know at least 6 more people who got frustrated trying to start tech companies in Toronto/Waterloo and finally gave up and moved to US/valley.

Most Canadian govt funding programs for startups (I tried) are for politicians to handout to their supporters. You need to be incredibly well-connected to overcome the barriers set to get funding.

Most people involved in startup/tech wouldn't give a chance to local startup unless there was validation from someone in US or valley. It was funny that one local VC I was trying to connect with wouldn't return my calls. One evening, when I sent him an email mentioning that I have a meeting with a NY VC next day, the guy calls me 11pm in the night wanting to know more about my startup.

Without valley/NY connections, it is incredibly difficult in Toronto for a tech startup.

The great Canadian startups I know don't look incredibly highly of government programs (namely SR&ED and IRAP). They're great, but can be distracting, taking you away from building value in your startup and into filling out meaningless forms. That said, free money is free money, and I've seen successful startups (that aren't politically connected) leverage these programs without being distracted.

We leverage both SR&ED and IRAP at our company, but it's difficult. It is a huge distraction, taking valuable time away from actual research and development. They requirements are way too stringent in my opinion. There should be tax credits or funding specifically for startups, especially startups still trying to find their product/market fit in the early stages.

That's consistent with my experience. Not only onerous paperwork; but very poor advice wrt how to build a business. This is federal money not intended for high risk high reward opportunities. The advice I got was "you should focus more on a niche instead of a mass market. Your chances of success will be much higher"

Same experience for me when trying to access government funding programs.

For one, the people you are talking to have zero experience in running a business, let alone a new one. They do have, however, extensive experience in drawing out meetings, death by powerpoint and producing forms in triplicate.

The grants generally come with a lot of reporting and strings attached, and generally require very large investments to be worthwhile.

We can get R&D tax concessions which are quite useful but the amount of money you need to spend in order to qualify excludes any sort of early-stage tech venture.

The entire process was a giant waste of time for me, and I get the impression they are political operations rather than genuine ones. In fact in my research I found out that infrequently do the funds ever actually give out all the money, but a good portion of the advertised spend (ie, $x00 million in new company grants) actually goes to the departments that spend their days handing out the money.

Not to say that the guys weren't genuinely trying to be helpful, they were. But they are hamstrung by their own reporting requirements and lack of understanding as to what people need money for, and when they need it.

My ultimate conclusion is that special economic zones with, say, 10 years of a tax holiday for a new company starting within that area would be a much better way to go about things. That would spur local investment and employment, have a specific end date and be much easier to administer. It would also favor bootstrapping as opposed to trying to capture large starting funds, which IMO for the outside-the-valley world is a better way to go.

>"The grants generally come with a lot of reporting and strings attached, and generally require very large investments to be worthwhile. We can get R&D tax concessions"

I have a bit of experience with SRED in Ontario, and quite a bit with the Alberta Foundation for the Arts.

Grants are nicer for you (me), but tax credits are doing it right as far as the government is concerned. Canada wants you to create employment. If you have a business that is generating revenue and creating jobs, they'll "give back" money that equates to, sometimes, paying wages at 50 cents on the dollar.

Tax credits are an economically efficient way to distribute government funds.

http://www.zec.org, of course Europe is a whole different ball of wax.

I don't want to get into a whole thing but as a co-founder in Vancouver getting SR&ED and IRAP support I have no idea what any of you are talking about in this comment thread.

It's remarkably little work to do the paperwork. It's annoying, sure. Who the hell likes paperwork? But a "distraction"? Oh please.

If I wasn't getting the money I would honestly be a little annoyed at how little accountability there seemed to be to get public money.

And the whole political connections thing ... I don't even know where to start with that one. I have none and no one I know has any.

I notice no one here has firsthand experience with either. I wouldn't have commented here but I felt I had to leave something here so that other readers wouldn't come away with an opinion that's ... let's say "uninformed".

Those are terrible news for me since we were considering moving to Toronto, and what you mention is exactly what I was afraid of.

Now that nepotism sounds more like something that happens where I live, funny that there's the same cronyism over there.

As someone who works at a Toronto startup, I suggest that you consider more than one person's opinion. No city is perfect but there are tons of talented people here and there is substantial government funding available that, in my experience, has nothing to do with nepotism.

I don't care a lot about government loans since those are a pain to get, I rather get a proper investor community, how is Toronto's?

Thanks for sharing your info and experiences. Very helpful to know for the future.

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