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Comment by ruswick | Hacker News Reader

I find his point about "overstaying your welcome" to be of significance. What constitutes such an intrusion? Is there some sort of universal time limit? Is it commensurate with the amount of money one spends?

I've always operated by the tenet that, if they take my money, I am justified in staying for as for long as is necessary. This seems to be the generally accepted precedent, as I've seen an immeasurable number of people purchase a single item and spend an entire day working. This is especially true of local, boutique coffee shops, at which the patrons seem to be less transient than those of, say, a Starbucks. Personally, I generally purchase a single espresso for $1.50, add milk to attempt to simulate the taste of an actual cappuccino (at one third of the cost), and stay for between three and six hours. This seems to be standard operating procedure for many people. Are extended stays stigmatized elsewhere?

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First: tenet not tenant; accepted not excepted.

$1.50 espresso for 3-6 hours feels a little like you are taking advantage of the coffee shop. There is always going to be some variation, but I would prefer to be a customer that helps a business--that provides a service that I like--stay profitable rather than one that helps put them out of business.

If/when times are hard it is good that you can do this, but otherwise if you can afford to support a business that is supporting you then order the cappuccino!

Agreed. Personally, whenever I study or do work in a coffee shop I try to regularly make purchases.

I usually end up averaging between $1 and $2 per hour which I think is completely reasonable for the space, drinks, snacks, and internet access. I'll ramp it up a bit if they get busy and if they stay busy for very long (30 min. or longer) I will usually leave.

Basically the rule is "don't be a dick". Hard to quantify. I've seen coffee shops around college campuses close, because students would come in as a study group, buy $3 worth of coffee, then hog the best seats for 4 hours. Customers come in, no place to sit, turn around and leave. This happens over and over. During the busy evening or morning hours. Yeah after a while the barista can try to politely ask you to move or leave, but if they reach that point, it is already kind of unpleasant both for you and for them.

If the place is almost empty, you'd actually be doing them a favor probably by sitting in there to make the place look popular and happening (those that don't know the place might skip it as well if they see it completely empty).

A rule of thumb: If the place is busy enough that your chair would otherwise be occupied by someone spending more money than you, you should consider moving on. There's no harm in filling empty space, but no coffee shop is going to survive on tables full of $1.50 do-it-yourself cappuccino drinkers. (Seriously?)

I think that's fair. Honestly, I tend not to spend time in shops that are at capacity, as it tends to be quite loud and difficult to maneuver. Certainly, the crowdedness will change the calculus. But, in cases where the shop is not close to capacity, my seat has effectively no marginal value, so I'm not costing the shop anything...

Personally, if I am not buying something at least every 90 minutes-2 hours, I feel like I am a freeloader and I get out. I hate it when I go to a coffee shop and every seat is taken by someone on a laptop with no evidence they have spent money there recently.

One of my local coffee shops gives 2 hours free wifi with purchase. If I plan on sticking around all day then I consider it that I am paying for wifi in 2 hour increments and getting a free coffee or food item out of it.

I call this "paying my rent". I'm HAPPY to pay for services. I want my local businesses to prosper.

There's an opportunity here. Starbucks popularized the notion "third place"; even if they didn't quite execute, many others did.

If a cafe served real food (not just treats), even prepackaged, and sported a printer (charging per copy), I'd never leave.

In my neighborhood, there's a postbox + copy center joint with unused square footage right next to an espresso cafe filled with laptop campers and scarce seating. Both have plenty of customers. But a combo would rule.

If a cafe served real food (not just treats), even prepackaged, and sported a printer (charging per copy), I'd never leave.

There's a cafe near me that has good food, coffee, and beer and wine. They also have taken over the space next door and put together a separate annex with just lots of cozy chairs, as well two reservable conference rooms. The conference rooms are subject to a food & beverage minimum (If you commit to spending something like $100 on food or drink, then you can have the room for two hours).

They kind of blew it because their internet router MITMs your connections to insert javascript to display ads, and they block VPN connections to work around it, but I just tether my cell phone and get a better connection anyway.

I'm sorry to break this to you, but most people would consider you an asshole.

Are extended stays stigmatized elsewhere?

Yes. Try ordering a side of bacon then covering it with your own couple slices of bread to simulate the taste of an actual sandwich (at one third of the cost) and see if you'll be allowed to hang around for three to six hours at any restaurant.

If the restaurant provides free bread (and a large portion of them do), I think it's entirely permissible to combine them. The coffee shops make the their condiments available so that people can use them. Why does the milk exist if not to be put in one's coffee?

> If the restaurant provides free bread (and a large portion of them do), I think it's entirely permissible to combine them.

They provide bread under what most people understand to be the social contract: that you will order more than a side of bacon.

Some restaurants -- especially those that serve students -- even require a per-person minimum order to ensure that they're not losing money on cheapskates.

You, sir, are a cheapskate, in that you're willing to break the social contract as to further your own interests, while transferring the cost of your benefit to your host.

Perhaps I'm misreading you, but you seem terribly focused on the letter, not the spirit, of not quite laws but presumed social rules of behavior.

That someone can scheme up a rationalization for some behavior does not make it right, desirable, or honorable.

It's OK to put milk into a coffee you buy. It's not OK to buy one coffee and then drink several glasses of milk.

The same goes for seating. Seats and tables are there so people have a place to sit while they consume their purchases. There may be no set rule on how long it should take to you drink a coffee, but this is where people have to be honest with themselves and consider if they are really still finishing up that coffee or if they are now, so to speak, just drinking free milk.

That works right up until somebody says, "God, that cheap jerk makes me crazy," and puts up a sign. Or moves the cream behind the counter, slowing down everybody who needs it. Or switches from the pitcher to the single-serving thingies, increasing cost and waste, so they can more easily refuse to give you one. Or just says, "Man, I've had enough of those cheap-ass internet guys. Let's turn off the wireless and remove the power outlets."

If you want a cappuccino, buy a cappuccino. If you want a sandwich, buy a sandwich. Commerce is a collaboration between buyer and seller. Both sides are responsible for making sure that the value exchange is sustainable.

> I am justified in staying for as for long as is necessary... I generally purchase a single espresso for $1.50, add milk to attempt to simulate the taste of an actual cappuccino (at one third of the cost), and stay for between three and six hours.

Frankly, I thought this was satire.

A simple thought experiment: what if everyone did like me...?

Say there are 20 tables, and it's open for 12 hours a day. Every customer spends $1.50 and hogs a table for 4 hours. Assuming constant full capacity (a very optimistic assumption), each table has 3 customers a day and brings in $4.50. Which means the shop as a whole brings in a maximum of $90 a day.

In other words: if everyone did like you the coffee shop would be bust in no time.

I would agree except that most people come in for coffee and then leave.

You could think of takeaway as a separate business. If sit-in wasn't meant to be profitable, coffee shops would occupy much smaller premises to save on rent.

Are you serious, a $1.50 purchase and you'll stay for more than half the day ? No business would be happy with someone doing that.

The rule of 'give any amount of money however small and stay for as long as I want' is not a good one to live by.

If we keep going down that road, we'll wind up with folks telling us, "Well, I don't like coffee so I just dropped a nickel in the tip jar at 8AM and stayed until closing. If I didn't know better, I'd say they seemed annoyed; did I do something wrong?"

You must not have read the Yelp review referenced in the first paragraph -- she was upset because they would not give her the wi-fi password, when she was not going to buy anything. She admits to giving them a "puzzled look" when they said the wi-fi was for "paying customers."

Spending $1.50 and staying up to 6 hours is what I would consider over staying your welcome. I would generally buy a coffee (or other item) at $3 every 1.5 hours. That seems more reasonable to me. It might be different if your coffee shop is empty all day but if you're there when it's busy taking up a seat for 6 hours for $1.50 doesn't seem right.

If there are other paying customers, the place is full, and you don't intend on buying anything within the next 30 mins to an hour, leave.

Coffee shops are not charities. How much do you think that $1.50 coffee costs them to make? Let's speculate $0.50. So the shop nets $1.00 and you take a chair for six hours.

But wait- you are using electricity and WiFi. You cost them money. Electricity is cheap and if they have reasonable internet service, so is internet- but now they aren't even making a dollar. Just how much profit do you think a shop can generate at $1 per 6 hours for a chair? If they have twenty chairs, that's maybe $30-40 gross for the day?

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