FBI seizes entire data center, won't say why | Hacker News Reader

FBI seizes entire data center, won't say why

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158 pointsvaksel49 comments

I wonder if this is true. The 15 police cars and a SWAT team thing and the lines attributed to the FBI commander seem a bit over the top.

If this is true, this strikes me as wrong on many levels. The overall expense and damage to unconnected organizations when a simple phone call would probably have achieved the same result is saddening.

Edit: This hosting company seems to not have a website. Most of the Google references are to this incident. There was one link which suggests there actually is a business by that name though.

That link being

http://www.manta.com/coms2/dnbcompany_05g9zf

  Company Name:  	Core Ip Networks, Llc
  Address:  8641 Glenturret Dr # 200, Red Oak, TX 75154-5864
  Location Type: 	Single Location
  Est. Annual Sales: 	$460,000
  Est. # of Employees: 	5
  Est. Empl. at Loc.: 	5
  Year Started: 	2005
  State of Incorp: 	TX
  SIC #Code: 	4813
  Contact's Name: 	Matthew Simpson

I'm just posting this information because it seems the site wants you to register to view info if you refresh the page, and having it can assist in gauging the credibility of the allegations.

It completely reminds me of Cryptonomicon. Anyone have an EMP-gun?

Sure I do, but it's a bit old and I'm not sure it's still working .. hang on, let me just te

Report Shows Alleged Fraud Against AT&T, Verizon [http://cbs11tv.com/technology/Core.IP.Networks.2.975776.html]

The gist of the article is this: "Documents say AT&T and Verizon told investigators they believe they were being defrauded out of $6 million in a three to four month period by a group of investors working together, including Faulkner, Simpson, and three others.

The documents say those individuals profited more than $1 million."

$6 million in fraud .... now that's a reason for raiding a data center that makes sense. As much as people may despise the RIAA and MPAA, the leak of the X-Men movie is not a reason to take down a data center.

I wonder where the other $5M went?

I wonder if the ECPA, Electronic Communications and Privacy Act, is still in force. If so the FBI may well be in violation of it.

Also reminds me of the Steve Jackson Games case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jackson_Games,_Inc._v._Un...

I may have missed it, but why do you think this has to do with the Xmen movie?

It was from the Reddit headline. It's not specified in the article, but it is the only explanation that makes sense here. I would be incredibly surprised if there was something else going on.

Are you being sarcastic?

edit: I mean, there have to literally be hundreds of other possible explanations.

No, I was being completely serious. Thanks for asking.

Is there something that links this story with the X-Men leak, other than reddit comments?

It's basically a random guy on the internet claiming the datacenter raid and the movie are connected. http://www.broadbandreports.com/shownews/Is-Wolverine-Leak-I....

That makes it his word against the FBI, who have no comment. There aren't that many who can call in an FBI raid seizing millions of dollars worth of computer equipment causing millions of dollars worth of collateral damage to the economy. But Rupert Murdoch can. Two days ago, a pre-leak DVD copy of http://www.google.com/search?q=x+men+origins+workprint+torre.... arrived on Rupert Murdoch's desk. Rumor from a random guy on the internet alleges the Rupert Murdoch incident. When Rupert Murdoch is angry, the FBI suits up and smashes your shit. Maybe RM really leaked it and wants to make himself look less suspicious.

http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/89vm4/if_you_run.... Reddit also eventually concludes that the connections here are all rumor and possibly an April Fool's joke mixed in somewhere.

The Wolverine leak isn't just according to a random person on the internet- its been leaked and is out there for sure. I'm positive you know this though as your description looks basically like a torrent file header, so I'm not sure why you would attribute this to just some person on the internet.

I agree with you as well- that these events are likely connected, but as far as I understand it is just speculation at this point.

I meant that a random guy claimed that a copy was sent to Rupert Murdoch two days before the online leak.

Also that a random guy claimed it was connected to the data center raid. Different random guys, of course.

I edited my post above to make it a little more clear, I think. Basically nothing is known about what happened except that the FBI offered to speed up their analysis of the machines if the corporations contact the FBI.

I can't think of a single one that would justify taking down an entire datacenter like that.

It'd be like evacuating a city block because of a single resident's alleged wrongdoings.

Runaway AI (yes, this is a joke)

The joke being that it wouldn't stop the runaway AI?

http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Is-Wolverine-Leak-Investi...

This was linked off of the Dallas Observer blog here: http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2009/04/so_what_l...

How legit this is, or how credible Dallas Observer is, I have no idea.

The Dallas Observer is part of Village Voice Media (http://www.villagevoicemedia.com), which includes similar local weekly newspapers in other cities. They aren't exactly incompetent rabble-rousers, but they tend to do more investigative journalism and "what-if" scenarios than your average major daily newspaper. I doubt they have any real direct experience with this particular corner of the IT industry, though, because it's incredibly unlikely that pirated movies prompted the takedown.

I've worked at various hosting companies around Dallas for 5 years, and have worked or observed quite a few abuse cases involving the federal government. This sort of heavy-handed action (killing an entire company's operations for a single client) has NEVER happened in my experience, and definitely not for something as innocuous as copyright infringement. That's what the DMCA is for. The feds don't get involved unless it's some seriously nasty stuff going on, like child porn, suspected terrorist communication, fraud, malware distribution, etc.

In the event that the government gets involved, they will have a field agent demand access to individual systems under a subpoena, but only to the systems actually involved (maybe some switches/routers as well). Unless Core IP has been proven to be complicit in some kind of ultra-illegal activity, e.g. the CTO is the kingpin of some hardcore piracy network, I have a hard time believing that this has anything to do with a leaked movie. I'd think that the Secret Service (US Treasury) would be involved in such a case, rather than the FBI.

This really is completely ridiculous, though. Makes you want to go read the common carrier laws cover-to-cover :)

edit: I guess this piracy thing has been confirmed as a rumor for some time... but hopefully this sheds some light about how the process works :)

Well, here's an interesting tidbit: Mike Faulkner's side of the story.

http://www.uwwwb.com/

And some BBB-style fraud reports, fairly recent (July 08):

http://voip.yuku.com/reply/421/t/Re-premiervoice-net-aka-pvo...

I don't mean to cast aspersions or commit libel, but it looks like Mr. Faulkner might have a bit of a spotty history, and according to these reports, has used multiple names in the past. This might get interesting :)

Drama is an understatement. There is a lot of yelling and hand-waving in that post. He even goes so far as to start impeaching the FBI informant by showing his picture and labeling he and his wife "drug addict" and "mrs. drug addict"

I'm thinking he's looking for slander charges on top of what he already has? Not sure though -- and quite frankly its not worth my time to investigate.

If -- and its a big if -- the FBI is screwing him over accidentally, then this will make a great case study for law enforcement on how not to do this. The truth will out. If, on the other hand, somebody has been playing in the cookie jar, no amount of yelling "gestapo" and "police state" is going to help him. The best it will do is play to the mindset of folks who are already paranoid to begin with.

This is a brave man. He should sit down and shut up. That's always the best criminal defense publicity strategy at first. The only thing you're going to do, innocent or not, is provide facts which can be discredited later on. You're also providing testimony in your future court case. Trying to make it a political case by personally appealing to the net? That's whacked. That's really whacked.

New to-do list for setting up data centers:

  - Raised Floors
  - Sufficient Power
  - Sufficient Cooling
  - Defensive Perimeters
  - Tripwires and Claymores
  - Attack Dogs

Do you actually think your datacenter employees are going to (illegally, mind you) risk life, limb, and imprisonment to fight the FBI in enforcing a warrant, granted in a court of law by a judge?

There are datacenters that have bullet-resistant riot glass, guards armed with submachine guns, guard dogs, and so on, but they would hand your servers over to law enforcement in an instant, as long as they had the appropriate paperwork.

If you're truly concerned about the data, encrypt it. You can still be compelled to reveal the key by a court ruling, but that's more work than a warrant, and something your personal lawyer can fight, or at least stall, much more easily.

For downtime, have multiple datacenters, and spread them across national boundaries. It's not that hard to get a few boxes in Canada or Ireland, or Sweden, and it's a much bigger pain in the ass for the police to coordinate internationally to shut you down. Taiwan is probably a better bet, as they have no treaties regarding this sort of thing with the US (to my knowledge).

I see that sarcasm is lost on some people...

I was also going to suggest a moat, drawbridge and surface to air missiles, but that was perhaps being too obvious.

I don't think Taiwan has diplomatic relations with the US, and so I doubt they have treaties: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China-United_States... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republ...

From Simpson's information, it is fair to assume the raid was indeed not in relation to the X-Men leak. A search and seizure as illustrated would at the very least require a standard search warrant, of which, would specify the nature of the search. Now according to Simpson, the FBI refused presentment of such, a prerequisite to the search, unless there was reasonable evidence data would have been destroyed. Either way, at some point, some one would have been served, unless, of which is a reasonable assumption, is in regard to suspect terrorist involvement or another of the various other scrupulous 9/11 subsequent clauses.

that google sites link is down... see google's cached version (do you also think that that doesn't make a whole lot of sense?)

http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:vxqYQFKjExEJ:sites.goog...

FWIW: The Google Sites link says that it's down because it "exceeded its Pageview limit" If he's cleared of any involvement, this suggests Simpson may revive his business through the publicity. ( The "just spell my name right" approach to marketing. )

If there's a warrant, the warrant has to explain what the search was for. Somehow in this post the author fails to mention the details of the warrant, instead going off on a tirade about the loss of freedom.

In general, nobody is coming into your data center and seizing anything unless its part of a criminal investigation. As such, a judge has to sign the warrant and the petitioner has to explicitly describe what is being searched for.

I can understand the writer being upset about his datacenter, but either he is not fully aware of the situation or is being purposefully misleading. My opinion is that he wrote this before he became fully aware of all of the facts.

Very good points, although it's worth pointing out that the system can be rigged. Meaning -- just speculating -- a guy like Rupert Murdoch can use his influence with a judge to get a warrant. It's also worth mentioning that the author claims to have been in Phoenix while the raid was in Dallas, so he had no direct access to the warrant. And no one is forcing the FBI to obey the law these days -- read the news.

There are a lot of businesses that could be brought down through the seizure of their datacenter, if even only for a few days. It could be something like an IP address in some log, connected with a kiddie porn. The authorities could easily concoct such a thing after they seize the center, then backtrack, later saying that the log entry turned out to be faked by the real criminals hiding their tracks. In the meantime, the business has been completely inoperative, it's websites utterly gone.

I could envision a corrupt branch of the FBI doing this on the behalf of an organized crime group.

There should be guidelines for the seizure of a datacenter, as this constitutes the ability to destroy a business, especially in cases where high availability is critical. (Often the entire center doesn't have to be seized, only access granted to forensic specialists while access by employees is severely restricted.)

Unless they use the state secret approach. They only have to convince a judge behind closed doors for a warrant.

Sorry you are wrong. Look up the patriot act, you will be surprised just how much the government can get away with without ANY just cause.

The government no longer has a need to actually notify you of why you are being arrested. The government does not need just cause to arrest you. The government can even arrest you for "possible terrorism suspicion" and hold you indefinitely without trial.

Its OK because obviously the patriot act only applies to those damn Muslim terrorists hiding out in NYC... it can never be abused in any way... right?

Well, no, they still need "cause" and a court order, it just may not be "just cause" in your opinion.

The only way they can do this (legally) without presenting a warrant involves a "National Security Letter", but even those need to go up before a secret court.

Another win for redundancy in your hosting! Especially across jurisdictional boundaries. Hopefully the affected customers and service provider will be able to recover damages from business continuity insurance.

(Shooting it out with federal agents who have arrived to perform and illegal search/seizure is a bad idea...)

Correct. "It is a demand letter issued to a particular entity or organization to turn over various record and data pertaining to individuals. They require no probable cause or judicial oversight." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter

Anyone who wants to watch a documentary largely about these letters should watch Spying On The Homefront by PBS Frontline (you can watch it online):

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/homefront/

Please, can a moderator change the headline?

(Previously, the headline implied that the raid was part of an investigation into the leaking of the X-men movie.)

Yeah there is no way to tell if this is due to the leaked movie that 20th Century Fox leaked themselves. A month to go and it's the movie that everyone talking about from their target audience to grandmas(they may not be talking about but now they know about the movie).

Ok the above maybe inaccurate but the leak if not a pr stunt is a pro for this movie.

Whatever else you can say about the original post, WHEN will people putting things up on the web realize that "Today at 6:00am," becomes ambiguous real fast on the web, when nowhere else on the page is there a date? I see this constantly, even on news sites. Gag.

So AT&T and Verizon can call up the Feds and get them to collect their debts for them? Nice.

what happens when the FBI or some other agency decides to shut down an aws or gae data center? How many of the toys we play with everyday just stop working. Our apps migrate to a backup datacenter, right? Maybe. And if they do, that means data is replicating in realtime all over the world. So in that regard it's better to work with the datacenter owners and shut stuff down systematically. Unless the datacenter operator isn't cooperating or is the subject of the investigation. Brave new world of cloud computing we will all be living in to greater degrees in the not so distant future.

Not 100% sure about gae but aws has multiple datacenters and is designed to distribute your S3 data across them so if one goes down your data is still available at others.

And you can always store a copy of your data/server images in US/Euro/Japan(some continent your regular data/servers are not) S3 as hot standby to launch when your local government raids datacenters.

AWS and probably GAE are in fact good defenses against this type of outage.

The real problem is not keeping your servers connected its avoiding being shot by the SWAT team assaulting your house.

One would hope that when they walked in and saw 100,000 servers, law enforcement would think twice before saying "seize it all!"

"The only data that I have received thus far is that the FBI is investigating a company that has purchased services from Core IP in the past. This company does not even colocate with us anywhere, much less 2323 Bryan Street Datacenter."

For that extra little touch of incompetence, I'm sure this mysterious company's CTO is right now sitting in his back yard, scrubbing down the hard disk platters from all his servers with sulphuric acid and steel wool.

fodder

Wow, just wow.

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