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Comment by jhspaybar | Hacker News Reader

Geez people, why can't we just take this as a moment of reflection. Read this story and say "damn, that's not cool someone feels that way, I wonder what I can do to make life better for the people around me?" It doesn't matter if you think she's over-reacting, or thin skinned, or any other judgement you've made of her after reading her post. Be a decent human being and realize that by being aware, you can make our industry a better place to be for all people. If you think she's just being "moody", there are plenty of guys who see and hate this behavior of our industry and would love for the environment t to improve. As someone who spent 8 years as a car salesman(a 95%+ male industry), the vitriol towards and objectification of women in tech is just about as bad. It's time to wake up.

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but that's what I always do! Whenever I read these problems, this is what I think! The only problem is, every time I think "damn, that's not cool someone feels that way, I wonder what I can do to make life better for the people around me?" I can not think of anything. There is nothing I could do! Absolutely nothing. I wrack my brain every time, but I can't do a damn thing.

How about this: I'll gather every single programmer in my office. I'll stand there infront of 30 software engineers and I'll tell them:

   "The reason women arn't successful in technology is because you are implicitly 
    denying them the chance! You need to re-evaluate on what criteria you are 
    using to judge someones actions or opinions."

   "But Fish, there are NO female programmers in this office. All 30 of us are male. 
    We have no one to discriminate against."

   "uhh... and ITS YOUR FAULT!"

That's why these posts are frustrating. I've met three women in my life who actually typed code into a computer. 2 sucked at it, 1 was pretty good but didn't enjoy doing it (hey for the record that's better than the males, who come in 80% bad to 20% good).

You know what's weird? Regarding the skill of that one good girl programmer? No one doubted it. No one patronized her, everyone knew she was good.

I can't possibly wake any more up! I'm awake! I swear!

This is exactly how I feel, for what it's worth. I'm certainly not perfect - I've probably alienated people before - but I want to consciously avoid doing so, and to try to make a difference. What to do though? Just listen?

Well, one thing you could do is attend conferences and decide that you personally are the one responsible for upholding the code of conduct.

I think it's interesting that in the Adria Richards fiasco, almost everybody focused on the reaction of one person who heard the off-color jokes. But there were probably 5 other people who heard them as well. Adria reacted because she had been sensitized to that sort of thing. But any one of those other guys could have said, "Dude, that's not cool. You're at a conference." And that would have been the end of it, because Adria wouldn't have felt like the burden of enforcement fell on her.

Another thing you could do: carefully examine your recruiting pipeline. 30 male engineers in one company is statistically odd. Last I was recruiting, I was very careful to put the word out in ways that were likely to increase the number of female applicants. We also made sure we had decent benefits and sane working hours. Eventually we also moved our office to a better neighborhood, partly because some women expressed safety concerns there.

Or you could do something like Etsy did: http://allthingsd.com/20120612/inside-etsys-gambit-to-hire-m...

Or you could start volunteering at events designed to get more women into tech. Or just supporting them with cash. I give regularly to the Ada Initiative and Black Girls Code.

You're right, it's a bit off. Remember that good programmer I mentioned? She actually did get interviewed (for the same job I'm in), but she didn't get selected.

>Be a decent human being and realize that by being aware, you can make our industry a better place to be for all people.

The problem is the agendas that ride on the coat-tails of such dialogues. If we could separate the baby from the bath water that'd be great but a culture moulded by P.C zealots does not make the culture a better place.

I want an example of a time when there was "vitriol" toward women in the tech industry. I've certainly never seen it.

Is this a joke? She just gave a bunch of them in her post.

Ah, someone "commented on her makeup" or "patted her on the head"? I've been asked to take notes in meetings from time to time, and I don't write blog posts about it...

Stop trolling.

I was about to quote the other parts of her post, but then I realized it's not worth the effort. If you don't acknowledge them after having presumably read the post, you're not going to do so when I quote them, and you'll probably throw some half-assed reasons as to why they don't meet the specific criteria of "vitriol" you had laid out in your head.

Instead, I'd like to use your post as another piece of evidence of the problems women face in the tech and programming communities. Hopefully those who do have a chance of understanding will look at your comment and go, "Wow, I can't believe some guy would say such a stupid thing. Perhaps there is a problem..."

Were you not around last week or something?

Steve, I'm sorry to mention this, but a few weeks ago you mocked someone's repo on Twitter. Incidentally, that person happened to be a woman.

The personal attacks on Adria (death threats and all) are disgusting, but they're not the kind of thing that keeps women away from tech. It's the small discouragements, like the one you did when you mocked a stranger's repo (probably without knowing her gender) that keep women from thriving in tech.

I'm really sorry for the ad hominem/tu quoque, but if you want to make tech a better field for women, you have to make some adjustments that can make it better for non-heterosexual people, people with disabilities, foreigners, etc...

It's not enough to be open for women in tech: we should strive to be friendly to people who don't have the same level of proficiency, people with different tastes and opinions, and strangers.

It's not a kid with a DDoS tool and a fake Twitter account who makes a women avoid a career in STEM. It's a well-meaning technologist accidentally being an asshole (http://blog.steveklabnik.com/posts/2013-01-23-node).

Actions trump words.

I'm not referring to the men, I'm referring to the reaction to her.

I had to report accounts to Twitter for sending her pictures of decapitated women, and posting her home address.

As for that other situation, as you say, actions speak louder than words. I personally feel that the pluses are bigger than the minuses here, but this thread isn't about me.

So, mocking someone without knowing their gender keeps women (and not men) out of tech.

How does that make sense? I'm honestly curious.

Arguable Steve's actions would keep any novice out of tech, regardless of body parts. Which is a fairly plausible scenario since he didn't know her gender, as he said (I think). Important: Not saying she is a novice.

I think the number of edits you had to just make to prevent your comment from being potentially offensive makes my point that you're all being weirdly oversensitive internet white knights.

I've been conditioned to avoid fights that I don't feel like fighting in this industry. That's coupled with a pretty good knack for how someone is going to read a comment (but I failed elsewhere in this thread, if you look for name). Not sure that makes me a white knight.

The shit last week absolutely scared some people. Some of us are steeled to get even louder because of it, but others were seriously considering being less visible or even dropping out. I'm not sure what the long-term effects will look like, only time will tell, but it absolutely negatively affected people in the tech industry.

As for Steve (and the others involved in the incident you mentioned), what they did was shitty. Behavior like that can have serious negative consequences as well. I was pretty pissed when that happened, and I really hope it's a mistake they won't make again (and if they do, they'll be getting an earful). However as far as I recall, the offending parties did apologize when called out.

We all fuck up, myself included. Apologies don't make everything better, but it's a world above people making death threats. I value allies who occasionally fuck up that I can call out on their shit over people who are regularly assholes and have no introspection when I call them on it. I've known both. The former has generally provided me with a support system. The latter has just tried to tear me down (see examples in my post).

Absolutely agreed on helping more than women.When I speak about personal experiences, they're mostly about women because that's my lived experience, but I am very much for helping a variety of people. Those who know me recognize me by my catchphrase, "MY TECHNOLOGY WILL BE INTERSECTIONAL OR IT WILL BE BULLSHIT!"

> but others were seriously considering being less visible or even dropping out.

I was considering that before this thing, and am only considering it more after, for what it's worth.

This thread discusses such feelings: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5411308

Were you away from HN during the "PyCon Event"? It was only a couple of days ago, and was a startlingly clear example.

Was that vitriol against women? Or against a person?

Both.

I was here. "I'd fork his repo," right? That was "vitriol against women"?

Come on mate, don't come the raw prawn with me.

No, the vitriol would be calling her a cunt, threatening rape, doxing her, threatening death, implying that she's hysterical, cheering her firing, etc, etc.

I say that because the nice interpretation of what you say i that you genuinely missed most of the story. But it's hard not to think you're just being an ass.

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents

Fill your boots.

Exactly what I was thinking. It's treating half of the human population: mothers, sisters, wives, daughters, as an inferior class of people. It's ridiculous and absurd.

It's also something that's both new and western. Programming, as an occupation, used to have a much healthier mix of genders. Looking at foreign-born computer scientists at my old grad school and at work, the ratio distortion is pretty unique to here. I donno what the cause is, but it is cultural. And we don't have enough of a culture for it to be anything more substantial than the accumulation of "1000 papercuts."

I think it's happening out of a combination of childishness and laziness. Most of us who repeat the same little phrases like "so easy my mom can do it" over and over just do it because we're too lazy to come up with a metaphor of our own. Here's an example replacement: "So easy a congressman can do it." (I don't think I have to explain the childishness part).

So, as colleges have higher proportions of women in the US, are we going to lose domestic undergraduate CS programs due to a lack of interest?

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