Would you consider it sexist if someone started a developer list only for people that identify as male? Would you consider it racist if white people started a conference where only white people could attend?
I can't make the leap to consider female-only developer lists not sexist or exclusionary without setting aside hesitation regarding the concept since my brain wants to consider it a double standard. Even in the face of privilege, another concept I can't really wrap my head around, but which even daring to question or seek explanation of inflicts the wrath of people who hate my privilege. (Nothing has come easy to me in my white male life. Nothing. I hate when people tell me I'm privileged, as it makes me feel like life is pretty hopeless, given the painful career and personal life I've experienced thus far. My life should be easier if I am privileged, right?)
As a man, I'd look down on a male-only mailing list, just like I somewhat look down on female-only mailing lists. How about a mailing list for human beings? I just don't get it. Why do we have to identify so hard with what we are?
Maybe I have a different perspective on privilege because I'm fat and ugly, and only the attractive white men get it, or something. But seriously, if I have privilege, how do I take advantage of it? Is there something I have to do to make it happen? Because I'd sure like to see it since everybody tells me I have it.
(I genuinely loathe "oh, you're a white male, life must be easy for you," just as much as you surely hate people snubbing your gender. I wasn't born into money. I wasn't born attractive. I wasn't born in a great town. I have a felony conviction. This is my second career. I've had to claw my way to success just like everybody else.)
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EDIT: Thanks for having a shot at this, men. I'm interested in OP's answer.
Here's a previous comment I've written in response to this question: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5340455
I still don't see it. This sentence is going to sound like I'm marginalizing women, but I have no other way to phrase it, so I'll just be blunt: do women want to be treated equally or do women want to be treated specially? Based on the winds of the industry, I sort of expected the former and don't see the place of female-only mailing lists in the world of that.
If that makes sense.
EDIT: But the phrasing of that dichotomy I think misses what is really being asked here. If you accept that these passive aggressive acts are a sort of negative reinforcement brought on by neglecting to think about women as people. Then the request would be to keep women in mind while you go about your activities.
As a result, people frequently come to ask "how could a group that excludes men possibly be ok, especially as a solution to 'sexism'?" The answer is that ethics are not as simple as "X is always bad". Ethics conflict, and then you have to weigh which one it's better to relax in that situation.
Even if you don't agree in this case, I hope most people can acknowledge that a reasonable person who believes that gender should not dictate what one can and cannot do can weigh the pros and cons and determine that the harm of excluding men from certain spaces is outweighed by the good of giving women a safe space where they feel more comfortable speaking and connecting, which may have the power to help erode the gender inequality in our industry and society.
It's a case of competing ethics, both of which most people support, that reasonable people can come down on either side of.
But in the big picture, there are established privileges for the majority. Not everybody benefits all the time. But there are subtle benefits that often go unnoticed.
I'm not an expert, but from what I've seen minority groups usually want to be treated equally but aren't, given the current pervasive environment. So they create their own environments in the meantime. All the while trying to change the primary environment so that eventually the segregated environments won't be necessary. Personally I'd prefer no segregated environments for any minorities, because I fear they reinforce the idea of segregation ,amplify difference, and encourage resentment. But I understand how it might be nice to have somewhere to get away from the primary environment from time to time.
> Personally I'd prefer no segregated environments for any minorities, because I fear they reinforce the idea of segregation ,amplify difference, and encourage resentment.
This is exactly where I am coming from. To the T.
I think you're still too focused on the individual level here. It's not meant as a personal rejection. It's more like "We are a minority and need a place to get away from all of that sometimes".
Try to think of it as getting away from the troubles and stress that come with being a minority in the environment, rather than a way to get away from specific people.
And that is why a male only hacker group (for example) wouldn't look good. There would be no minority environment to try to get away from. The group would be excluding females simply because they are females. In order to be less offensive, there must be some other reason for the exclusion. A mailing list that only allows men suffering from erectile dysfunction probably wouldn't raise too much scorn from anybody.
So for any minority-only group, the trick is to accept that there are legitimate difficulties inherent with being part of that minority. Sometimes it takes effort to see things that way, especially if you are supposed to be part of the majority and see no benefit from it.
From the perspective of contemporary social justice theory, such things would indeed be considered sexist and/or racist because they are used to support privilege, whereas a women-only context or Black-only context would be used to deconstruct privilege.
(Some people consider this standpoint is completely insane, while others consider it a self-evident truth.)
Marxists have been twisting the language to enhance their own power for too long.
It really depends on the context. If the list was started just to encourage juvenile behavior, than yes. If it was started to address real issues that were specific to male developers (perhaps paternity leave/care issues), than no.
There are mens groups in a number of occupations where men are underrepresented (primary school and nursing being the most prominent).
Playing "Oppression Olympics" is a common derailing tactic, just FYI. Your personal experiences don't change the difficulties that women face in tech.
"Oppression Olympics" wasn't remotely what I was doing, and if you took the time to read it carefully, you'd see that. Particularly and emphatically the portion that you took the time to quote. (Hint: "You say I have privilege and I don't see it" is not even on the same page of the map as "I go through more than you do". I was presenting a "maybe" scenario to explain away my not seeing privilege, not saying "good Lord the world hates me because I'm ugly, how dare you feel bad for having a vagina!")
If the same thing were happening to men, then having an exclusive list would be appropriate there as well.
I'm also a white male and still earning nowhere near average wage despite hitting 40 recently, but I'm not blind to having less obstacles to overcome. The thing to remember is that social wealth is not a zero-sum game - we all gain when someone grows.
"Women are the most hostile people I know in groups. That seems counterintuitive."
She said that, not me. I'd say it but the repercussions of doing so should be fairly obvious.
(Better? Really, sorry, I tried to word that one right because I didn't mean it for you and had a feeling you'd take it that way. I didn't mean to offend you. The ambiguity of English sucks. Assume benefit of the doubt?)
As a disclaimer, I'm a programmer, and neither a feminist thinker nor a writer. I'm writing this as an ally. I also have quite a bit of privilege myself. So forgive me (and call me out) if don't make sense or sound ignorant or condescending.
I think you're saying that when someone says, "you have male-privilege," you hear "life must be easy for you." Privilege doesn't mean that you don't also suffer from other forms oppression or discrimination, and it definitely doesn't mean that you have it easy. You mention that you are discriminated against because you are "fat and ugly." It sounds like you've suffered from very real oppression -- every bit as legitimate as the OP's story.
I feel that part of the misunderstanding comes from the difference between the common and jargon meanings. In this context, "privilege" is a jargon word coming from feminist and social justice philosophy.
In common speech, if I say someone is privileged, the implication is that this person is well-off in some way. I imagine a person with money and political influence -- someone who has benefited wildly from their privilege. But in the jargon, it refers to "a set of opportunities, benefits and advantages that some people get and others don’t." (definition quoted from the blog post linked below) Someone recently told me the story of a black stock-trader who noticed he was being passed up for job promotions. When he investigated, he found that his white colleagues were playing golf together -- and becoming friends -- at an all-white country club. The bosses were not intentionally promoting white employees, but, because of the racist policies of an unrelated institution, the white traders got the privilege to build these friendships with their superiors.
I found this blog post really helpful. It gives a very non-judgemental and helpful introduction to privilege: https://sindeloke.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/37/
Here's an excerpt:
"Having privilege isn’t something you can usually change, but that’s okay, because it’s not something you should be ashamed of, or feel bad about. Being told you have privilege, or that you’re privileged, isn’t an insult. It’s a reminder! The key to privilege isn’t worrying about having it, or trying to deny it, or apologize for it, or get rid of it. It’s just paying attention to it, and knowing what it means for you and the people around you. Having privilege is like having big feet. No one hates you for having big feet! They just want you to remember to be careful where you walk."
I hope this helps.