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Comment by ma2rten | Hacker News Reader

Without overgeneralizing too much, Europe does not have the same culture of political correctness as the US does. If someone makes a joke people get offended less quickly. In this case people would just think of the jokers as immature and move on.

The only exception I can think of is concerning the holocaust.

EDIT: Anyway, I can recommend anyone to live in another culture for some time in their life. First you will feel alienated or even offended by many of the things you hear and see. However if you look deep enough (and many people don't) you will understand that neither your culture nor theirs is right.

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I'm an American who lives in Denmark, and I agree, but I'm not sure it is people getting offended less quickly in general, versus on specific subjects. There are plenty of ideas that Danes consider to be completely crazy, not really debatable in polite company. For example, suggesting that abortion should be illegal, which is a mainstream position in the USA, is such a crazy-far-right position in Denmark that you couldn't bring it up in a regular social setting. Also, suggesting that healthcare should be a purely private responsibility, not guaranteed by the state, would position you as quite far-right, with even many far-right people distancing themselves from the full extent of that position.

On the other hand, Danes can come across as rather crass about some subjects, especially race.

I don't know if you are US citizen or from other American continent citizenship, but I, as a Frenchman, had the same impression, reverted, with fellow Quebequois boys. When we were casually talking between us about girls, they had a kind of transgression excitement that I did not understand. When asking, they told me they kinda weren't allowed to even think this way in their countries, let alone talking about it.

For me, it was just normal boytalk sharing personal preferences for small or big female body parts, for them it was as exciting as leaking out of school to smoke a cigarette.

I think it goes deeper than that. A remarkable well-documented(#) fact in the history of sexual life is that sexual perversions were much worse in places where sex was considered a sin (eg. the West), than in places were it was considered natural (eg. China).

I am really concerned that, after a while, the sexual PC pressure could backfire in North America. We all know how "Hell is paved", right?

(#) http://www.amazon.com/Sexual-Life-Ancient-China-Gulik/dp/B00...

> I don't know if you are US citizen or from other American continent citizenship

LOL! Although the Western Hemisphere is a big place, and North and South America comprise a lot of countries, I can assure you, in standard English, and fair or not, "an American" === "a United States citizen".

You are correct, but there is no reason to be rude.

Interesting. As a Quebecois, I can attest to the fact that we often seem castrated on sexual subjects, and europeans are seen as more casual. Quebecois girls are often seen as "easy prey" to europeans, as they are not used to be around men who are being openly seductive. Before you gloat, though, we also hear horror stories of europeans (especially mediterraneans) who are unable to respect women, so I suppose there is probably a healthy middle-ground somewhere between the two.

As for sexual perversions being worse where sex is considered a sin, that makes a lot of sense. Japan would be a great example: genitals are censored, yet they make some of the weirdest most perverse porn one can think of.

For me, it was just normal boytalk sharing personal preferences for small or big female body parts, for them it was as exciting as leaking out of school to smoke a cigarette.

Thinking about it I'm regularly seeing kids aged 13 or 14 smoking cigarettes in front of their schools in Paris. French people have a special ability to free themself from the rules.

I'm a Romanian.

> suggesting that abortion should be illegal, which is a mainstream position in the USA, is such a crazy-far-right position in Denmark

Personally I think Americans are spoiled.

In Romania under Ceausescu (so before 1989) abortions were illegal. Hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of women (in a country with a population of less than 19 millions) ended up doing illegal abortions under unhealthy, unsanitary conditions. Many of them had health issues because of that, thousands died or were prosecuted for it.

Many of the women that didn't manage to get an abortion, ended up with unwanted children. Conditions were tough as we were living with harsh austerity measures, many of these parents barely had enough money to put food on the table, many of these children grew up in families that didn't want them, many of these unwanted children were given up for adoption, filling the streets with beggars.

Abortions may be murder, but making them illegal is also murder.

If you are interested in what happens when abortions are made illegal, there's a good documentary movie about what happened in Romania. Search for "Copiii lui Ceausescu" (in translation "Ceausescu's Children")

The "face" of abortion that is presented by the anti-abortion crowd is that of the teenager that wants to have sex without care for the consequences. Think rich/middle-class white girl that just wants to 'live it up,' then get an abortion before going out clubbing again, or something. You've also got anti-abortion people that believe crap like, "it's impossible for a rape to impregnate a woman because her body physically prevents it." It's a weird form of cognitive dissonance/stupidity.

Perhaps you are not aware-- that is precisely the same situation as in the United States until Roe v. Wade in 1973. The phenomenon you're describing is pretty common knowledge in our left-wing political circles; on the right, it is deliberately ignored.

Uhm... no. This is factually incorrect. If it's "pretty common knowledge in [your] left-wing political circles", that's fairly pathetic. Roe v. Wade overrode state (and occasionally local)-level laws making abortion illegal, but it did not suddenly switch abortion from "illegal" to "legal" in the entire country. (How could that even happen... from a practical perspective?)

There were 193,491 legal abortions in the US in 1970. Prior to Roe v. Wade, abortion was a state-by-state matter, and the lines were being drawn in fairly predictable ways based on the right/left state-makeup of the time.

Your point is well-taken, but I don't think it actually goes against what I'm saying. Abortion in the US was not Federally illegal, but it was illegal for many women and many women died for that. That ended when Roe established it as an affirmative right-- though perhaps not for good, as we're starting to see again entire states where legal abortions are simply not available.

I do appreciate the correction, though I'd have appreciated it more in a more constructive tone.

Sometimes I think that Romanians (and people who have lived under genuinely despotic regimes) are the only ones who really understand American politics.

> Also, suggesting that healthcare should be a purely private responsibility, not guaranteed by the state, would position you as quite far-right,

Well, obviously as this is an extreme far right position (I'm american living in Europe and I realize this...).

Of course, any position you do not agree with must be extreme. Reasonable people are called reasonable because they agree with your reference group.

No, you misunderstand. I never mentioned whether I was right wing or left wing. I was simply pointing out that the the position you mentioned is extreme right wing on the political spectrum. You imagined it to be centralist?

Yes, those would be considered extreme positions in much of Europe. Healthcare privatisation is pretty much a forbidden topic in politics because suggesting it would be political suicide. Nobody wants it.

And banning abortion is tantamount to signing the death warrant on hundreds of young, confused, scared women. So, yeah, these are considered extreme views, because they're extreme.

That's not necessarily a European view on abortion. Many countries in Europe are strongly catholic (Ireland, Spain, Italy come to mind), and in some cases, the religious views have affected the laws (read: Ireland). I'm Irish, and abortion is a hotly debated topic; The main people against legalising it are staunchly catholic groups and use this as their basis.

You're right in saying that the anti-abortion movement in Ireland correlates with catholicism, but I think the more staunchly catholic groups are fairly right-wing (not in an extreme, goose-stepping fascist sort of way, necessarily, but more in a Fine Gael sort of way). With that in mind, I think the data in Ireland supports the grandparent's claim that anti-abortion is a right wing movement in Europe.

I think perhaps the confusion here is due to the fact that the Irish don't see themselves as being divided according to the French tradition of left and right, but according to which side of the civil war they think was right.

It's perhaps instructive to note that the people and organisations that oppose abortion in Ireland today are often the same ones that supported Franco's rebellion during the Spanish civil war and that both things were supported for the same reason: catholicism. The Irish right wing has more in common with the right wing in the rest of Europe than it gets credit for.

> On the other hand, Danes can come across as rather crass about some subjects, especially race.

This is a very valuable piece of data!

Despite all that's great about PG's essay: Funny is not an oracle of universal good! Humor is wonderful. It's universal. It's tremendously important, but it does not make you right, and it is not license to do and say whatever you want.

Rationality is wonderful. It's universal and tremendously useful. But we all know that just because a human is applying rationality, that doesn't men she/he is necessarily right. Likewise, what tickles your own funny bone might not tickle someone else's. Humor and rationality are universal. Your own POV and your own application of those are human and flawed.

Funny is not an oracle for all that's good. Most of the time, humor is an orthogonal area of concern. It does not make one righteous, and it's very unlikely that someone failing to be funny gives one an excuse to be self-righteous.

When I was working in San Fran (I'm British - live in The Netherlands), the amount of times my colleagues told me, "Sam you're not very PC!" when I made a random funny comment, I always told them, "I know, I'm more of a Mac guy". They weren't offended by my comments I think, but maybe more shocked?

I remember an incident whilst we were walking to lunch, a guy came out of a parking lot with squealing tires... which made me say my most crude comment while I was working there: "Someone is on their period". Sure, I generalised women with that joke, but I didn't mean anything by saying it (just that he was probably cranky..) - it's a joke, the girl I was with could of equally said, "I'm sure that dude has a small penis." I have a regular non-12" cock (I'm not ashamed to admit that) and I wouldn't of been offended. But her comment was, "SAMMM! That's not very PC!". The guy I was with commented, "Ahh, dude, not PC man". All said and done, they were fun people to work with and didn't make a big deal out of it besides commenting, not pc.

Comedians always generalise, and making jokes that are in context with a current situation isn't weird. Come on, loosen up, life is boring when you are forced to only say serious things... We spend most of our lives working. Why should we be forced to spend most of our lives being boring whilst hiding our personality?

This is actually one of the top reasons I'd be afraid of working in the USA again. I don't want to get fired or sued over "sexual harassment" due to a comment like the one I mentioned earlier. That, and the fact that if I'd get fired, I'd have to leave the country within a week...

I do agree, that making a joke specifically about a person you work with, or are in a room with is a big no-no - well, if it's harsh. A meaningless non degrading joke is fine which isn't meant in a serious way. But don't make jokes about people you're with regarding their sex life. People are touchy about that and I can understand. General sex jokes that don't degrade a certain sex? Fine!

In my books, although I find it funny and mean nothing by it, I wouldnt say the following in a work environment: "I have an appointment to get a facial, I'll be back later." - "Lol! Tell him not to get some in your eye!"

Well you must understand that what's acceptable is a constantly moving narrative and it moves at different speeds in different cultures. In general humor that works based on demeaning a subset so that the larger majority can laugh at its expense is something that's (slowly) dying. After all, in your initial comment, all your doing is saying "Let me insult this boorish driver by comparing him to a menstruating woman! We can all have a laugh at that right?"

Wow, do people in SF use the term "PC" all the time like that? I've never even heard anyone say that. Also, I have yet to see tremendous displays of people shunning non "PC" comments. So I live/work/grew up in the North-East US. And I say much of the language and jokes are still some what crass and rude. I know a few guys decently high up that drop f-bombs all day long, and nobody blinks, guys in the lab make sexist/elitist jokes left and right, no body cares. (yeah yeah, it's mostly males) But what I've seen, the closer to NY/NJ/Philly you get, the more "un-pc" people get. And sometimes the brutal un-filtered honesty is refreshing to me, to be honest. Or a simple joke about sam having his panties in a knot lightens up the mood a bit.

I used to work on a trading floor in NYC. And man, I doubt anyone (even the women) did not spend the day cursing up a storm. Of course I did too. There's a satisfaction that comes with hanging up with a client (on the phone) and then ripping him apart to your fellow traders for not "spending" enough.

Now, living in South Florida, it's almost the same environment. But, except for a few neighborhoods in Miami, most consider South Florida to be a borough of NYC.

The term PC was originally invented by Reaganite republicans as a piece of propaganda to lampoon the left. The weird thing is that it then ironically caught on, presumably amongst complete dimwits.

Living and working in China (and Europe before that), I can confirm this. Sexism and racism are even completely different affairs outside of the states (more so in Asia than Europe), I'm reminded of that every morning by the design of the toothpaste tube [1] that my wife (innocently, she's Chinese) bought for us to use, which would probably get me arrested in the states if I accidentally packed it.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darlie

Oh come on. Of course that won't get you arrested. You must not be aware of the American cult of Free Speech. Speaking out and being an insensitive asshole is just that, nothing more. It's your actions that determine criminality. Unlike China sometimes, right? ;)

I was using hyperbole. But I do get checked at US customs a lot, it makes think very carefully about what I'm packing (I usually just buy toothpaste in the states, its so much cheaper there anyways). Japanese magazines, for example, are always a big no no.

Anyway, I can recommend anyone to live in another culture for some time [...] if you look deep enough [...] you will understand that neither your culture nor theirs is right.

Sort of. You'll learn a lot about a different culture and you'll learn a lot about the one you were raised in. You also will learn that, in some ways, neither your culture nor the new one is right, that in other areas the new culture is better, and in still others yours is.

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