The inside story of Lenovo's ThinkPad redesign | Hacker News Reader

The inside story of Lenovo's ThinkPad redesign

engadget.com

47 pointsLightning62 comments

Fuck that. The UltraNav is gone. Looks like I won't have the 3 trackpad buttons under my thumbs on the next gen. No more opening links in a new tab with a single button click. Ughh. I guess people just don't want to pay for nice things anymore...

The previous generation of Thinkpads lost their IPS displays and switched to el-cheapo "short screens", the current generation of Thinkpads lost the proper keyboard and switched to shitty chiclet style calculator keyboards, and the next one is going to lose the UltraNav.

Consumerization of computers sucks. They used to be tools for professionals, now everyone is optimizing for disposable facebook terminals. I hope that at some point the tablets and phones are going to completely take over the consumer market and someone will start making usable laptops again.

I hear you. I've been stocking up on T61's for a bit now. I have 6 now. It might sound crazy, but its the last well-built machine I've found which is open and not full of shitty hardware or odd screws. I can strip one with a Swiss army knife.

Considering I still use a 75MHz ARM (HP50g) for a lot of things, I don't think the rapid progression of computing will serve me in the future well so I'm happy with one of them and FreeBSD for the next 20 years+.

Second hand T61s seem to be weirdly cheap. Is that because there's a glut from businesses selling them and moving to tablets?

Nothing to do with tablets - no one really cares about them in business. You just don't see them other than in the hands of a few purposeless executives. I visit hundreds of medium-large enterprises and they just aren't any.

The moment the warranty runs out, they buy T4xx series ones instead and throw the others at resellers in bulk. This is all scheduled alongside windows upgrades. The motivation to get rid of the T61's coincided with Windows 7 upgrades (the T61's nearly all shipped with Vista).

I've seen a pallet with 500 T61's on it being carted away from a large insurance company for these reasons.

T61s are cheap, but the ones with the 1600x1200 screens aren't, unfortunately.

> No more opening links in a new tab with a single button click. Ughh.

Sounds like they have virtual buttons to support the old functionality http://www.thinkscopes.com/thinkpad-buttonless-trackpoint/

I know the Windows drivers for this stuff is lacking, but on my MacBook, touch gestures have made my mousing way more productive than my old multi-button mice did (even with all the chording and stuff). Three-finger tap to open in new tab, swipes for back and forth and switch tabs, virtual monitors, etc. And a large trackpad that takes the space where buttons used to be makes that possible.

Gestures are one thing, but I've got a laptop now that has "virtual buttons" on a trackpad (the trackpad even physically clicks down) and it's excessively annoying to use. I can't feel which "button" I'm pressing, so mistakes are made. I'd rather have a trackpoint + 3 hardware buttons any day.

Since IBM sold the Thinkpad unit, quality has been downhill. :(

That'd be an obvious assumption to make, but I've been using both IBM and Lenovo versions and I frankly don't see much of a difference. Any concrete examples?

The T410 keyboard from my current model against my old T43.

The screen quality of some T420 here in office.

I disgree. I think they've changed but IBM would have probably followed the same path.

The same staff are designing the ThinkPads apparently.

Maybe in terms of general design towards thinness, but I don't think IBM would have yielded to the display manufacturers when it comes to the aspect ratio of the screens.

I think they would as software is moving towards width over height these days. All my T61's are 16:9 and I'm happy with that.

I always thought I'd never buy another non-thinkpad due to the workflow of using the trackpoint + trackpoint buttons (ultranav). Who knows now with the way things are going. Seems odd to get rid of your distinctive features, I'd much rather they just removed the trackpad all together.

Oh cuil, they took away tactile feedback from clicking and will probably require a binary blob just to make the trackpoint "buttons" work. And no more dedicated buttons for volume control (they probably took away the mixer hardware behind those, too. it was nice to not be at software's mercy). Although I guess these things aren't as bad as every new laptop having a shortscreen, sigh.

It's articles like this that are the problem, with phrases such as "still an Ethernet port" and "change too little, and your rivals maintain the edge in design". You don't compete by following Apple - the people who want buttonless sealed-up devices still won't choose you. You've got to stick to your strengths.

I never before wanted to reach through the tubes and slap a reviewer like I did when I read 'still an ethernet port'. I work in the heart of the city, and there are something like 20-30 wifi networks that pop up when you look. I've never bothered counting. But compare only having that connection versus having wifi for when you want it plus having a wired gigE connection.

Here's what I got from the article.

- Island style backlit keyboard

- No more physical buttons for the touchpad or pointing stick

- Function keys now default to Media keys

- "Thinner and sleeker" is more important than anything else.

In other words, the machine is getting more and more similar to standard mass-market notebooks. I don't know why they'd ditch exactly what sets them apart from the competition.

I always tell my customers if they want a laptop that will last to get a Thinkpad T series. As long as they don't compromise the build quality I'll be happy.

Why not a toughbook? Something like an SX2[0] or a C2[1]

[0] http://www.panasonic.com/business/toughbook/business-rugged-... [1] http://www.panasonic.com/business/toughbook/semi-rugged-C2-c...

Toughbooks are extremely costly and heavy, I'd recommend them to people doing field work, otherwise they are a bit excessive,

They are costly indeed, for the same reason "original" thinkpads or MBPs are costly: they're worth it.

As to "heavy", I linked to "business rugged" series of toughbooks. Fully rugged toughbooks (those you see on field work) are built like tanks and heavy as fuck indeed (e.g. Toughbook 19 with 5.1 lbs or Toughbook 31 with 7.9 lbs), these are much sleeker machines: way above an average laptop, but not MIL-STD or IP65 by a long shot.

The SX2 is 3.1 lbs. By comparison, a 2012 MBA is 2.38 (11") to 2.96 lbs (13"). Would you really call 3.1 lbs "heavy"? Let alone "extremely" so? (the C2 is a big bit heaver at 3.6 lbs, as it's a convertible tablet with a bunch more features like hot-swappable batteries)

Thank you! I'll look more into the business line of the toughbooks.

> Function keys now default to Media keys

It's been like that for a while now. There's a BIOS setting for that.

Sorry, Lenovo, I'd rather have "dropped 3 feet onto tile floor and still works fine" than "thin and sleek". This is why I buy ThinkPads, not because they're trendy and look cool. My laptop is for getting things done, not acting as a fashion accessory.

I also don't really see the logic behind getting rid of the hardware buttons for the trackpoint but keeping the VGA port. How are hardware mouse buttons uglier than a VGA port? Every time I look at my VGA port, I wish it were HDMI or DisplayPort.

It looks like my current ThinkPad will be my last.

I've had a T61p for 4 or 5 years. 1920x1280 screen. A Core 2 Duo that doesn't feel dated. I dread the day that something happens and I need to get a new laptop. I think other fans will know what I mean when I say this one is perfect.

Totally. I've got two of the last non-widescreen 14" T61 laptops. They're fantastic and fairly cheap on ebay today.

Yeah.

I had my IBM Thinkpad T43 replaced by a Lenovo Thinkpad T410, and the quality is not the same, the keyboard feels cheaper.

I felt the same, until I put it in my backpack while on and the video card died. That particular model has a known defect in the soldering on the video vard (NVIDIA's fault), so be careful with how you use it.

Fun fact: apparently, people have fixed theirs by putting the motherboard in an oven to resolder it.

Ah, Bumpgate and BGA soldering problems.

So, they removed a lot of good things but failed to add a better screen. I love my X220 and was looking to buy a newer model since the 1366x768 screen is really limiting, but I guess I'm done with Thinkpads for good.

I have the T430s (predecessor model of the article). It is almost a perfect machine - I have a fast CPU, 16GB of RAM, both 500GB HDD and a 250GB SSD, thunderbolt, fingerprint reader, a DVD drive I replaced with a battery etc. It weighs 1.8kg which is fine. This is an excellent mobile powerhouse. (I have a Nexus 10 for light fluffy stuff.)

But then the screen is 1600x900, 16:9 and there is a massive bezel (4.5cm vertically and 3.2cm horizontally). I want more dpi, I want a more sensible aspect ratio and I'll take a larger screen (unfortunately the 15" T530 plus wide bezel was just too large).

The screen is the thing they made no effort to fix.

I will second this. I have the same machine, the aspect ratio is completely obnoxious for anything productive. Not wide enough for two decently sized windows side-by-side, and cramped vertically. UGH.

I have an X201 and it's also a great machine... except for the terrible screen. Why they skimp on the screen is beyond me. I can be sitting square in front of it and still dark colours in videos are off, the viewing angle is that narrow.

The design looks great. But after I got my first Thinkpad I started to use the physical mouse buttons with the touchpad, and even disabled all the point-and-click stuff and after that you can use it almost as good as a separate mouse. I would hate to go back to push-and-lick actions.

To the media keys being default, that is not an problem, you can change them back in BIOS to work as regular F-keys.

Thinner and sleeker is always a good thing if the build quality is what it used to be, and I believe it is.

Keyboard backlight is also a great thing if you just can change the level to be very minimal to barely see the keys in the dark.

All in all, this very well may be my next laptop.

And to you guys you whine about not enough usb-ports or the lack of CD-drive, I'm sure there is a Thinkpad coming with the new design that gives you all that and more.

The fact is, people very rarely need CD-drive and tons of ports, this machine will suit really big part of the population and like me, im happy to sacrifice CD-drive and few ports for a lighter machine that I carry around daily.

(sorry for the bad english, it is not my native language)

I actually prefer the old Thinklight. I often use it as a reading light for notes while I'm working on my computer.

I have a T430s. It has both the keyboard backlight and the thinklight. I had an R500 before that had just the thinklight. I very, very strongly prefer the keyboard backlight for three reasons:

1. no reflections on the keys

2. part of the thinklight reflects off the screen, reducing perceived contrast (=(Imax+k)/(Imin+k) where k=ambient light)

3. for some reason, I even find the backlight helpful in broad daylight

I didn't think it'd make so much of a difference before I got the T430s, but for what it's intended it's just vastly superior. And I've found that now that I have the backlight, I don't actually use the thinklight all too often anymore, even though it's only two Fn+Space away.

YMMV.

Honestly, two USB ports is not enough sometimes, that is the biggest gripe with my current laptop. Three seems like a sensible amount for nearly all situations, especially on something targeting corporate customers.

I noticed this post

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5392943

and commented there (based on the specs sheet they show):

Not pleased.

Keyboard changes, including what appears to be a "sharper" front edge to the palm rest. (I hate having that pressing into my wrists when a table is not at the ideal typing height.)

Apparently only one DIMM; initial 4 GB soldered.

WWAN and mSATA share a slot; it's either/or.

No optical drive or spare drive bay. Yes, some of us still use those.

P.S. Also, this perspective just occurred to me:

They are no longer offering a $1000 laptop. They are offering a $700 (perhaps generous -- soon to be $600 or lower equivalent) laptop.

I won't pay them $1000 for this. I'll pick up a competitor's $600 model.

Aside from the price inflation, there's little left in this model of Thinkpad to tempt me to make a longer-timeframe purchase decision. I'll probably switch to buying something else, and just upgrading every year or year and a bit -- if and as needed.

1600x900 display [1], but I don't hold much hope that it will be an IPS screen. The screen viewing angle and lack of contrast is by far the worst part of my T410.

[1] http://www.engadget.com/2013/03/17/lenovo-thinkpad-t431s-ult...

I wish they'd just upgrade the screen and leave everything else alone.

Agreed. This is one thing the chromebook pixel got absolutely right: the resolution, and the 3:2 aspect ratio. Wish more devs would speak up against these useless 16:9 displays that this Engadget reviewer bemoans.

I was one of those 16:9 haters, but then I realized it's really handy to be able to have my progam's window and my editor/debugger on the screen and not overlapping, or have my browser for API reference, my Emacs, and my compile window all next to each other. You sacrifice vertical height, but make up for it by not having to switch virtual desktops between documentation/code all the time. Plus, it makes UI debugging so much nicer when switching to your program's window doesn't cause a repaint when it's the paint routine, or a menu or something that you're debugging.

Not only do I find it nicer for development, but there's the bonus that your movies fit nicely (I don't use an actual TV, since a 17" laptop on my lap is a similar visual angle as a large TV 10 feet away, and cheaper and more portable, too).

Absolutely. I love wide displays, and I do vastly more dev type stuff than anything else.

The amount of hate for wide displays you see on HN and other tech-centered sites, and the apparent presumption that 4:3 is "obviously" better for devs, has always puzzled me a bit. Surely it depends a lot on individual habits?

This is an interesting list: http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/TFT_display

The T2x series from the early 2000s had arguably better displays.

Do not like: no screen latch and no more physical buttons.

Luckily I buy a laptop for a few years and I run Linux, so I don't have to upgrade any time soon. Maybe by then they will make decent laptops again.

From the looks, it seems like a well thought out machine. Clean but still distinctive design. If the innards and workings are as well thought out, it'll be a great laptop.

Never again. I was a Thinkpad loyalist, and used it exclusively for 12 years. Last year I got a new one and the screen backlight died within 5 months. Lenovo shat on the brand, and I'm not going back.

After sampling a few different products, I got myself a $400(!) Asus X501A. Beautiful piece. Light as a feather. And has 3x the battery life of my Thinkpad.

Yep. I got an eMachines 732Z (Asus) for $400 last year. $80 for 8GB of RAM and $200 for a 256GB SSD (+$20 for an adaptor to put it where the DVD drive was) and I have a dev laptop that'll eat just about everything else for breakfast.

Lenovo did some research "about understanding users and their behavior" and came up with a MacBook.

I hope they didn't epoxy that TCPA chip on the back of the motherboard - http://dribbble.com/shots/751583-Don-t-forget-your-password

The "Terminator Edition" prototype looks like crap - Thinkpads' rubber finish is what gives them their distinctive look, and changing that would be a horrible, horrible mistake.

tl;dr

* horrible chiclet keyboard

* tap to click (no physical trackpad buttons)

* very few USB ports

* no CD/DVD drive

* no screen latch

But it's 10% lighter than the T430s!!

Or to condense it even further: Like a MacBook Air but with a trackpoint.

No dispute on the last four points, but honestly... as a Thinkpad user for 7 years, I honestly prefer the current keyboard on the Carbon X1. It feels much better than the other shitty keyboards that exist, especially on most ultrabooks, and the keys don't ever get stuck compared to the old keyboard version. In fact, I think it takes the cake for favorite laptop keyboard I've ever used.

It's not a chiclet keyboard - you can see the air gap under the keys in the first photo.

They already went chiclet with the T430. The photos out so far for the 431 have bad/odd lighting with some misleading reflections.

My mistake - I always thought 'chiclet keyboards, named after the gum' referred to the rubber-mat keys that are truly horrible to type on, when it refers to the style of contacts (rubber mat, but can have hard plastic caps).

Opinions vary, but I have read several (about the last iteration, e.g. the T430) that are more favorably inclined to the Lenovo version of these "chiclet" keyboards. That their action is better and that the hard topped, slightly curved keys are more comfortable.

Still, though, as far as I know one of those rubber mat "contraptions", under the surface. And with the "island" style key placements (surrounded/separated by a distinct surface, instead of the keys being immediately adjacent to each other).

* Non-replaceable battery * horrible resolution (my phone has higher)

Where did you see the bit about the non-replaceable battery?

Frankly, the keyboard on my T430 is the best I've ever used. But yes, it seems to suffer from a severe case of Apple copycatness.

One thing I find odd is the statement that they asked people "from all walks of life". It may be a good idea if you're building a generic laptop, but I don't understand why you'd want to do this for a business laptop. You're not going to build high-quality professional sports equipment to cater to the amateur crowd, so why would you do this for a business machine?

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