Linux computer shop closing | Hacker News Reader

Linux computer shop closing

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Last time I submitted a Google+ link I received some feedback from people who couldn't read it. For those, here is a copy:

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http://www.hettes.nl/hettes-stopt [Dutch]

This is sad. Translation:

Hettes is closing

We have to announce that we, the team of Hettes, can no longer deliver laptops with Ubuntu Linux or another Linux distribution. This is not because we want to or because of time or resources, but it's because we can't buy computers (anymore) without operating system.

We started our webshop a few years ago with a lot of ambition and fun, continued developing it, and helped lots of customers with satisfaction. Since the beginning of our passion and ambition for the webshop with laptops and desktops with pre-installed Ubuntu Linux we've had problems with buying systems without operating system, or simply said without Windows.

We have tried to continue our work in different ways and we have had small successes. However with Windows 8 all doors are being closed permanently and we see no way to open these.

The worst of the story is that the community, you, as user of Ubuntu or another distribution were very happy with the different parties that deliver/delivered laptops and desktops with Linux and we always received positive and nice feedback from you.

We'd like to continue our activities and serve users and consumers with your request for laptop and desktops, but we are not given the chance to do this. Because of this reason we decided to stop our internet activities.

This does not apply to existing customers of Hettes, we as team have decided to continue technical support and warranties for you because, as we said, we're not closing because we want to, but because we are being held back by the large computer manufacturers.

I am sorry,but to me this entire article and comments below it are just a massive pile of whine.

Large companies like Dell get Windows at such discounted prices that the difference between a machine with or without OS would be 10-15 dollars. It's not like having windows installed on a laptop is increasing its cost by $100. And why does a company mentioned in this article have a problem with Windows already pre-installed? Installation of Linux on such a machine is exactly the same as if there was no OS on it in the first place. Heck, they could even leave Windows and install Linux as a second OS,but make it boot by default - and then have it as an extra selling point - Linux computers,but with Windows as an option. Windows 8 is not sealing anything yet. And EFI problems are easy to overcome if you want to - and if your business depends on it, I believe that it would be in your best interest to want to?? To sum it all up - I believe that this entire story is made up and no shop even existed in the first place. If they could sell linux computers 3 or 5 years ago they could still do it today, and it seems like the entire article is constructed to just blame MS for problems that don't exist.

To some extent I agree... With the volume discounts from MS, and the fees payed for the shovel-ware, the Windows laptop/desktop probably does cost less than no-OS. Even then, they could probably get a knockoff/blank laptop/desktop direct from mfg from china... for desktops, they can order case/psu/mb/cpu/ram and self-assemble, in the mid-high range machines ($650+) you can even beat the likes of Dell in terms of machine/$$.

As much as it probably hurts their workflow, I'm willing to bet there are alternative avenues available.

It's right and proper that microsoft receive a payment for every pc laptop sold?

Since when do they do that?? It must be new, since as far as I know Microsoft gets payment for their software. If a manufacturer decides to install Windows on their laptops, then Microsoft gets paid per licence. If they don't decide to install Windows,then MS doesn't get a single penny. Unless there is some new law that I missed that says that all new PCs HAVE to come with Windows, I think your question is moot.

Microsoft actually was coniditioning the market [1]

If any vendor had the gal to offer a computer with no operating system at a discount, microsoft will pull their "special discount" and Dell or whoever will be paying full price for their licenses.

Apparently there was fallout for that choice. Fortunately Microsoft isn't fighting it anymore. Perhaps because working under the table works better than over it.

I don't want 10 dollars going towards microsoft

I don't want 5 dollars going towards microsoft

I don't want 1 cent going towards microsoft.

But I want a laptop. How unfair of me.

[1] http://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm#iiie

Then you can buy a laptop from a manufacturer that does not put windows on their products - it's like saying: I don't like Michelin and I don't want to pay a penny towards them, so it's unfair that car manufacturers put these tires on their cars. Even though the deal is probably exactly the same as with Windows and laptop manufacturers - car makers probably buy tires of a specific brand a large discount, so a car with tires and without them would cost roughly the same. Yet I don't see people complaining that when buying a car they don't get to choose the brand of the tires,of the wipers or of the stereo. A car is sold as a complete package. How come that people treat laptops differently?

Lets stick with that tire example. Because god knows we don't have enough euphemisms about operating systems and cars.

So Michelin has 80% of the tire market, and is releasing esoteric tires backed by huge marketing campaigns. They raise the price of normal Michelin tires for everyone, and offer their new esoteric tires to manufacturers at big discounts as long as they don't sell cars with other tires.

Cha-Ching every manufacturer says, people are clamoring over themselves to get this new tire. In order to support this new tire they had to build part of the car to these strange specs anyway, no other tire would fit, so the condition that they not use another manufacturers tire is an easy one to meet. Bouns: if they meet it they get a big bulk discount!

Jump ahead 2 years: buy a car. One without a Michelin tire? I'm afraid that's not possible. Yes of course there are other tires that meet the standard now, but we all know you're safer on a Michelin tire, and we all know it's easier to just use the Michelin tire. Why are you making such a fuss? Oh you already have some tires that fit? Ok well just buy the car with the Michelin tires, take them off, and return them to the manufacturer for a - oh wait they won't actually do that. They require you to return the car. Why? I have no idea. I guess cars are sold as a complete package, so taking off the tires is just pointless, you don't like the tires? Send the car back.

Manufacturers are starting to get burned though. Michelin has marketed well. There's a large portion of the population that do not trust tires other than from Michelin, those discount tires are costing allot more now adays. The threat of pulling their discount isn't even relevant any more. people just can't imagine driving on the road without a Michelin tire. Manufacturers try to sell cars without them but are greeted with poor sales, distrust, and even negative public reaction.

So you just watched this whole thing happen. Sort of like watching a car accident. You browse the tire section of Costco. 20$ for a set of Goodrich tires. 25$ for a set of Firestone. 235$ for a replacement set of Michelin tires. Oh and by the way no mechanic will touch your car if you don't buy Michelin.

I got to say, if I was standing there, the last thing I would think is "I don't see what all the fuss is about."

Personally, I am fussed.

Well yes, I do see your point. It's a vicious circle, one that I think would be very very hard to break.

I don't think they do.

http://zareason.com/shop/Laptops/

http://www.dell.com/us/soho/p/xps-13-linux/pd

https://www.system76.com/laptops/

http://www.emperorlinux.com/

And a bunch more.

>the difference between a machine with or without OS would be 10-15 dollars

This used to be true, but microsoft upped the oem price of windows quite a bit since Windows 7. The estimates I've heard are closer to 50-70 dollars.

This article doesn't contain a number, but in it a director at dell claims the price went up for windows 7: http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=15177

Maybe,but then the manufacturers also get money for including additional software(like Norton or McAfee) so in the end the difference between the laptop with Windows and without it might be nill. And Microsoft actually makes Windows cheaper if a manufacturer includes Office Trial edition, as a kind of advertisement.

I'm sympathetic to any small company that finds tough sailing due to competition. It sucks.

That said, this really isn't surprising. The major hardware manufacturers are geared to sell Windows computers, not just computers. Make no mistake, the every-computer-has-Windows-8 structure is a decision by the manufacturers to gain discounts toward the cost of the OS. They do the same thing with video cards, hard drives, memory, etc. It's enough so that it makes a huge economic difference to do so.

In terms of a business problem, this is a supplier issue relative to the cost of doing business. If the existing set of suppliers have a cost factor that doesn't work in your model, you find another supplier. And if no suppliers meet that criteria, then the market is making decisions for you.

From the sounds of it, the major manufacturers don't find the desktop Linux market to be worth it for them to service. However, I've ordered a few systems from ASUS with no OS on it, so I would think there are still suppliers available that could do business.

Seriously? If I was doing the same thing I'd be buying from ODMs like Compal, Quanta or Foxconn, not from Dell, Lenovo or HP.

http://www.foxconnchannel.com/ http://www.compal.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=... http://www.quantatw.com/Quanta/english/product/qci_nb.aspx

I think in 5 years you'll see a resurgence of plain-old-computers. People will still be in the market for tablets, those that never needed a full blown desk/laptop to begin with. However, as more people begin to realize that they're just consumers of these new, handheld "TVs" of the Internet generation my hope is that the demand for boundary-less computing platforms will realize a resurgence. It's sad to see the overall industry being reduced to the world of locked out hardware because of... Software companies. Hypocritical? For sure. But if protecting the business model of a platform by ousting competition is the only way to lock in dominance I feel that's a cheap way to earn your keep. I think some would argue it's just the way things are today. I don't buy that.

I tried to buy a Lenovo sans Windows and they informed me it was not possible. Not possible to not write a bloatware image to a hard drive, of which takes time and energy for Lenovo in the manufacturing process. Really? Don't tell me as a savvy consumer that it's not possible since that is an aggregious lie. Instead tell me that it is not something that within your catalog of product options. At least then it's not a lie.

With the production lines that these manufacturers run, yes it is more expensive for them to pull a subset of computers and not load their bloatware windows image. That just isn't a situation they are setup for. You can argue about whether or not it should be this way, but that is the reality of the computer manufacturing process. Sure, it's more accurate to say they won't do it, but in all likelihood, they can't do it and keep their profit margin.

Now if they were to stay that they were contractually obligated to install windows on every machine, then they'd have a problem.

Disagree. If you've ever seen the manufacturing process it would just be a simple bypass. The installation of the images is done far closer to boxing than you likely realize. In all reality the bypass of that process could shave critical time off filling an order, especially when you're talking about made-to-order combinations.

Now straight line runs are another story, but that's not the context of the conver

What exactly is the process like?

Any change in the process makes it more difficult to manage. More difficult means more expensive. And maybe they've just decided that they didn't want the hassle.

It actually started already. I have a friend who was looking for a new laptop with a good screen, good keyboard and a trackpoint. He tried several laptops from Lenovo and Samsung and sent all of them back. You know what he ended up with? A second hand Thinkpad T61p, 15.4" non-reflective display with a form-factor 4:3 and a monster resolution of 1920x1200. He paid for this only 440 €.

For someone who does not need much power (works remotely) it is a very good choice.

Well, clearly they did not look around enough. How come these people can sell laptops and workstations without OS: http://pcspecialist.co.uk/ (no affiliation)

And they're just an example. Europe is full of this kind of small firms.

I wonder what their real reason for quitting is.

Because hardware can be bought with another OS installed and then reinstalled with Linux (having checked whether it's fully compatible beforehand, though that's quite okay nowadays). Most others will probably be doing that, but then you're supporting the Microsoft empire, which is what Hettes was trying to avoid.

The ethics and economics are frustrating to untangle. Without the Microsoft juggernaut, it's certainly true that we as users would have more choices. We could pay Apple $5000 for a Mac, Commodore $5000 for an Amiga, Sun $10000 for a Unix box, or pay steep prices to any number of other vendors selling incompatible boxes.

Point being, I'm not sure the economics of buying a Windows box and overwriting the hard drive are really that bad, compared to what might have happened in a world without Microsoft's standardization efforts.

Standardization would have happened without Microsoft. The progression of almost every new technology is that it becomes more standardized as it become more mature. Take operating systems as an example. At the beggining, every computer had its own OS and software written for one computer likely would not work on others. This was a problem, so eventually we came up with BIOS, which provided a standard software interface to different hardware.

Later we had a similar divergence in operating systems. Eventually Bell Labs created UNIX. Excluding windows, the UNIX specification is the standard of most modern operating systems (OS X, GNU, BSD, Solaris, ETC).

That's absolute bollocks. Asus still sell OEMs bare bones laptops with no license as do a fair number of Chinese brands.

System76 is clearly buying laptops from OEMs and outfitting them appropriately; I imagine ZaReason is doing the same. You get devices of about the same quality as Dell or Compaq, with all the drivers you need already in place.

Sigh!

For those interested in the nuts and bolts of the issue with UEFI/dual-boot, etc....

http://www.linuxbsdos.com/2012/11/05/dual-boot-windows-8-and...

There are a lot of comments about the closing of the shop Hettes. I'm one of guys that were running the shop and I will explain something. ( in bad English, sorry )

We have search for manufacturers of desktops and laptops to buy without OS and after 3 years, we stop trying. We have spoken with Lenovo, HP and Fujitsu and they say it is not possible, they close the door. Other manufacturers didn't even replay on a e-mail. Okay, we had contact with BTO but the systems they make will not supported for 100% by Ubuntu, because most items have a double videocard or some of chip that is a problem.

We believe that Linux systems is much better than Windows for proxily 80% of all desktop and laptop users, so we start a shop with systems includes a Linux OS. BUT! The OS must be easy in use for starters with Linux, that is one of the groundrules by selling hardware.

We want to test, we didn't get the change; We want to buy without Windows, forget it; Okay, we want to send the Licence back, don't think about that; We want to work with manufacturers for the best userexperience, dont think about that either.

So, that's not making sell laptops any easier.

Thank you for all the support.

I had a little trouble finding a non-Windows laptop last time I bought one (summer 2012), but it wasn't impossible. If these guys are making most of their money from customization or support, why not resell System 76 laptops? Otherwise, buy big orders from Clevo or some other manufacturer. I sincerely hope this shop wasn't buying computers at Best Buy for resale.

Hettes has contact System 76, but it was not possible to get a partnership :(

No supporting evidence makes me skeptical - what were they buying before and how has it changed?

Beyond that, a retail computer shop closing isn't surprising - computer shops have been a high risk proposition for...well, forever. But one which limits itself to Linux, what were they competing on? Mostly price, it looks like. Otherwise paying for machines with Windows wouldn't be likely to break sales.

And that's the problem with Linux in the mainstream. People expect Linux computers to be cheaper and that means that for the same margin, revenue is lower - it's a race to the bottom and it has to compete with HP. Throw in the much smaller size of the market segment for Linux and it just doesn't make sense as a business model.

Don't get me wrong. Running a Linux only computer shop is not wrong. It needs to come about out of love - like a coffee shop, a B and B, or a used book store.

I think that if Michael Dell or Steve Jobs were running that shop we wouldn't be seeing this message.

Is this a secure boot / Microsoft key issue?

They can't find someone on Alibaba to ship them pcs without OSs?

I am guessing they can't get good quality for generic alibaba manufacturers.

I really doubt it

Some OEM brands are good. Some name brands sell OEM computers /lines.

Get some brands, models, test them.

Well that's just messed up. I have no problem with Microsoft's market dominance; I just think they're a problem since they give the finger to our freedom of choice.

I wonder what the alternative is for companies. For users or companies with a few computers, Linux is absolutely no problem once you get used to it. For power users I'd argue it's the only sensible choice. But what if you are running a 2000-employee company, how can you manage all workstations without a Windows domain? Does Mac have any alternatives, or are there open-source alternatives?

Yes you can. There are solutions to move user profiles to a central server and boot from there. Mac can do the same thing with Mac OSX Server edition.

An entirely different question is, is it sensible? Our university has two computer clusters accessible by Computer Science students only, one with Windows and other with Linux - 200 computers each. Guess which one is giving more problems? And the reason is that Windows server is a much more refined product. I would say that it's slower,but it makes sure everything is correct, double checks if there is no corruption, if the connection is authenticated, if you are not over your quota, and then it does fantastic job of restoring the machines to ideal state every day and keeping them updated.

Linux does the same thing,but only partially. Profiles get corrupted frequently,because it just seems to write what comes from the network, and if it looses connection it takes a while before it realises that it happened. And after that, it proceeds as if nothing had happened, while Windows has procedures to repair user's profile. As a result, our admin is constantly fixing all the weird problems with Linux machines, while our Windows machines keep running most of the time without a fault.

I am not saying that it's not possible to run Linux domain systems - but they require(in my experience) a lot more maintenance than Windows systems.

Okay, thanks for the info. I thought as much actually, that there was a way for other OSs but that it's not really refined or practical. There should be a company that writes software so that Linux can do the same... hmm, or doesn't Red Hat? They're a paid distribution aren't they?

Yeah, Red Hat does have solutions for that. And no, the distribution itself is free but it doesn't have any of their tools. You pay for them and for the yearly support.

[Edit: Original HN title was "Linux computer shop closing because of thwarting by large companies."]

Narrative about unnamed "large companies" trying to kill Linux? Check.

Story about Microsoft Windows 8 killing off a poor Linux company? Check.

Lack of any details like the names of companies that stopped shipping machines without OSes? Check.

Lack of explanation about how exactly Windows 8 "closed the doors permanently" ? Check.

This is just plain FUD designed to garner clicks and sympathy by invoking the bogeyman and it's working very well, just like usual.

As an offtopic aside, even RMS is not immune from resorting to unproven FUD. For example from http://www.fsf.org/blogs/rms/ubuntu-spyware-what-to-do

>This is just like the first surveillance practice I learned about in Windows. My late friend Fravia told me that when he searched for a string in the files of his Windows system, it sent a packet to some server, which was detected by his firewall. Given that first example I paid attention and learned about the propensity of "reputable" proprietary software to be malware

I haven't been able to find any reputable reference for Windows sending local search keywords to "some server", maybe someone can point me to one. But the FUD campaign continues unchallenged and unabated, even in a community that prides itself to be technically superior to the unwashed masses.

The windows search hitting the internet thing in XP is just a buggy software update mechanism, it doesn't send a search term. Here's a good explanation: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/04/11/winxp_search_assista...

>But when I performed an Internet search, the Assistant sent my search terms to the Microsoft site, and also dropped a session cookie on my machine.

OMG, an internet search sends keywords over the internet to an internet server! Stop the presses!

I see your point and it makes sense. However, calling this FUD simply by stating the lack of data is not less of a FUD in itself.

And on a grander scale, how many times you have seen a small shop taking a big corp out of business? I don't think immense forces like Microsoft require our zealous defense. They're more than able to defend themselves, unlike these guys.

Even at an off chance this Dutch shop is a fraud, give them a benefit of a doubt, before you learn more about the case.

>but it's because we can't buy computers (anymore) without operating system.

So were they buying computers from OEMs like Lenovo and Dell, installing Linux and then selling them? Why not assemble desktops from components? I believe the ODMs will sell laptops without OSes to distributors if the order is large enough.

>However with Windows 8 all doors are being closed permanently and we see no way to open these.

What has this to do with Windows 8 at all?

That's exactly what I was thinking. Theirs' seems like an unusual approach yet one that has it's advantages. I guess they would buy in bulk and leverage that so that they could get special preference regarding the OS? And they avoid having to build their own brand reputation, too.

They can still buy from an ODM like Clevo and sell them under their own branding.

Windows 8 = UEFI Secure Boot. eg see https://lwn.net/Articles/503803/ it is going to be much more difficult to run Linux. Because of the dominance of Windows it may be harder to get motherboards without this, so there will be much less choice and you will need more technical knowledge to sell Linux stuff, eg maybe flash your own firmware.

All Windows 8 certified machines need the Secure Boot to be able to be turned off.

I seriously doubt turning off an option in the BIOS/UEFI setup screen is going to hobble them.

http://www.top-password.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/...

> you will need more technical knowledge to sell Linux stuff,

I would really really hope that a company installing and configuring Linux would have the technical chops to turn off a bios setting.

All Windows 8 certified machines

This only applies to x86 platforms. ARM-based "Windows RT" systems are locked down. I think you're right about this case but I think it's important to remember that some EFI secure boot systems can't be unlocked.

Oh, please. A Windows RT system is not a Windows 8 certified machine, not even close, the capabilities are vastly different. Might as well point out that the "ARM-Based iOS systems" come with a locked bootloader.

Why would you want to buy an ARM based Linux machine?

The MS Surface is some pretty sweet hardware.

ARM-based Windows RT systems are also lead balloons in terms of sales.

I think that the market will self-correct here, as no one wants ReTarded Windows, or a machine that can only run the same.

I really wouldn't mind an RT based ARM system, if it were more price competitive (to even low-end x86 systems, and high end android), and wasn't using a locked boot loader. As it stands, no sale.

Irrelevant unless the company in question was selling ARM-based systems (which is impossible since they refer to Windows 8 as something that has changed in their business model, and previous versions of Windows did not support ARM. So they must have been selling x86 machines.

> What has this to do with Windows 8 at all?

I think he really meant Windows RT.

My guess is that, to either increase their margins on sales or to appeal to the "budget PC" consumer, they were attempting to get one or more of the various flavors of new ARM-based Windows RT offerings, which tend to come with UEFI secure boot and are more difficult (but not impossible) to get Linux on.

That makes even less sense. Why blame a platform that is barely selling? You might as well blame the iPad for not making it easy to install Linux. Or just grab a Nexus Tab 10 or Asus Transformer or even a ARM Chromebook, slap their version of Linux or whatever on it and sell it. How is that different from trying to get Linux on a Windows RT machine?

I really don't care about this issue at all, but if I have to read any more threads with you relentlessly defending Windows, you have to disclose your employer. Looking at your comment history, you are obsessed, and I don't think it's fair.

Same goes for recoiledsnake. To me, a vaguely interested reader, you all come off as zealots.

Yes, that's such an unusual phenomenon at HN. Microsoft is the first company to bring out vocal supporters in this place.

Are you trying to make some vague point through sarcastic remarks? If so, I find it completely unhelpful and unconstructve. I am pretty sure internet snark is long-since outgrown by most of HN.

Feel free to add something of substance.

I find you completely unhelpful and unconstructive. I've criticized Apple and its acolytes before, but I've never accused one of being a plant. Consider the possibility that people are talking about Microsoft because the company is doing interesting things again.

And I hope I never grow out of Internet snark.

> Why not assemble desktops from components?

The actual labor of unboxing consumer parts and putting them together would double the cost of the machine after you run sufficient testing on the system akin to what a factory will put it through.

Even if you got someone to sit around and just screw together PC parts, you are looking at an hour a machine (if you want to verify it posts, then stick it in a corner running prime95 and memtest to make sure the parts check out) and that is prohibitively more expensive than a Windows license.

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