How a month and a half on Paxil taught me to love being shy.
slate.com
slate.com
From excellent comment from philosophical discussion about Modafinil (the stay-awake-alert-all-night magic drug).
Eventually the artificial line between "medical" and "I feel like it" will need to be addressed. On the other hand, the world is probably rich enough to support the kind of experimentation described here "in the noise."
Personally, I expect or rather hope for a drug that will truly help me lose weight with minimal danger and minimal side effects. I eat too much, almost enough to qualify for "the biggest loser," but not quite at that level. (If I lost 100 pounds I'd be thin but OK, they routinely lose 100 pounds or more and are still zaftig, plus they are shorter than me.)
I'd say as long as I wait for the right drug to lose weight, I can't fault those who have found it to talk to more girls at parties. Its probably healthier than becoming a rock star or carrying around cocaine all the time anyway.
Its just a tool. You still have to work like hell to get over your social phobia. Then you come off the Paxil.
http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/88i21/how_a_mont...
My personal experience: When I was regularly playing Racquetball and lifting weights, I didn't find everyday problems - tough as they were - to be daunting. Then there was a long gap when I didn't have this protection and the circumstances had much greater impact on my mood. I am starting workouts again.
If you are male, the best "drug" for social anxiety is weightlifting. (No, you don't need to be a huge-ass body-builder-douche, if you don't do 'roids you probably won't be one, you'll look normal and athletic.)
I think probably it's all about testosterone - weightlifting increases the levels of those and thus makes us feel more "manly" and that just blows away the insecurity.
I'm not a scientist, so that testosterone stuff is just a guess, but it was amazing how at the age if 17 it transformed me from a shy, withdrawn, never-look-people-in-the-eyes teenager to a "real man" - relaxed, confident, one who talks to people as a real equal. Much of social interaction has hidden traces of very primitive instincts behind it: the sexual instinct and the fight instinct, and weightlifting gives you confidence in both (even though you would still be beaten to a pulp by any 120 pound Thai Box fighter, but that doesn't matter, you probably don't actually need to fight: it's just the feeling) which transforms into a relaxed and confident social interaction.
Another way to put it is that as an Aspie, I always felt alien from both the world and from my body. My idea of "me" is something in my head who tries to drive my body with a remote control and it just doesn't work well. Weightlifting got me to connect with my body, it made by body a part of the "me", and through the body as a medium, it made me connect with the world and other people. (Probably it's something about strenghtening some under-used neural pathways that connect the "self" parts of the brain with other parts.)
Now at 30 I'm often too lazy to do it, but whenever I do it for a few months, my Aspiehood just goes away.
About weight lifting helping cure social anxiety, I think it's more than just testosterone. If you get serious about weights, you start watching your diet. Eating well is a large component of feeling well, and cutting down on junk and processed foods makes a noticeable difference in mood and energy.
There was a period of time when I wasn't working out, but I'd go for a drive late at night when I was stressed. Not a normal drive, mind you; I would blast up and down the side of a nearby mountain. The physical aspect of driving, combined with the focus necessary to not go flying off a cliff, had a very similar effect. I don't recommend this, as it was extremely reckless, but if you happen to live anywhere near a track, or even a karting facility, I'd strongly suggest trying it out.
And when you're exercising at the limit of what you're physically capable of, you do feel very alive.
Getting into and pushing through physical pain on a regular basis also makes it easier to connect to and overcome other pains in you.
For some I'm sure, but not me. At the beginning of this year I began regular weight training sessions, three times a week. I have in fact repeatedly said to my friend that got me into it that I never want to look like those world class guys, the ones with the huge super tanned muscles and massive veins popping out all over the place. It's just not aesthetically how I would ever want to look. In a way I see it as being another expression of the "thin" culture that movies and TV tend to promote (mainly to women). These huge pro body builders have taken it to far in my opinion. The human body cannot reach that level of musculature without the aid of synthetic growth hormones. It's just as artificial (if not more) as a person who starves themselves to meet Hollywood's current ideal. Of course, it's their body and they can do what they want with it, but I'm just talking from my POV.
I think I would have the possibility to be a pretty successful pro body builder if I wanted to be as I have a naturally large frame. Even before I started going to the gym, people sometimes would think that I did. So even though I think there's a good chance that I would excel in this area, to me it's not worth exploring to the furthest extreme. My point being that I believe there must be many like me who do weight train but do not wish to ever look like Arnold in his hay day. Hence the common disclaimers that you mention.
In the 3 months that I have been training I have noticeably gained strength and muscle mass, but will never take steroids and will make sure that I never look unnaturally muscled.
I very much like the meditative nature of the training as it relates to concentrated focus on the specific task at hand, as mentioned by another commenter. And there are health benefits that I have already observed.
But as for the effect of weight training on confidence in social interactions, I can't say I've noticed any change whatsoever for me. My feeling is that those who do notice a positive change in confidence are possibly the guys who are a little on the small side and after training for a while and gaining some strength and mass, it makes a bigger psychological difference to them than it may have for me (as I mentioned, I have always been relatively big and tall). My second point being that - based on my own anecdotal experience - I would think any change in confidence would be more tied into the psychological than the physical.
One tablet of lexapro causes my interest in sex to disappear entirely for a week. Personally I think this simplifies my life, but three days of sleeplessness is quite a price to pay.
A friend of mine started taking Effexor, but then we found accounts of how it's impossible to stop taking Effexor: blood-curdling stories about pharmacists who'd dissassemble the pills and reassemble them to titrate the dose down, and who'd still be unable to get the dose to zero. He stopped in three days, before the damage was done.
Anyhow, all of those drugs affect serotonin metabolism, as do the 5-HT2A agonists that some people call psychedelics or entheogens. Alexander Shulgin did a 30-year research program on psychedelic phenethylamines (drugs structurally related to dextroamphetamine, mescaline and ecstacy) and found that certain drugs in that family have a synergism with alcohol much like what the author of that article describes.
Interesting experiences though - thanks for sharing.
But all in all, I had zero creativity. I do not remember coding anything of significance. Pretty much just a maintenance lifestyle. I behaved the same with alcohol and cannabis, so it is probably my specific make-up.
I really enjoy the creative side, and I choose to remain clear. It makes for better relationships for me, all around. I also love what I do, and I seem to get better enjoyment from it.
FWIW...
So Prozac definitely helped but yeah the creativity thing is a pain. I work like a robot now. I list out a schedule and have to follow it exactly or I get annoyed. I don't like to do anything out of the ordinary now :(
A friend of mine started taking Effexor, but then we found accounts of how it's impossible to stop taking Effexor:
blood-curdling stories about pharmacists who'd dissassemble the pills and reassemble them to titrate the dose down,
and who'd still be unable to get the dose to zero. He stopped in three days, before the damage was done.
Edit: thanks!
Further, there are a lot of shy geeks out there who might want to try something like Paxil. Brain chemistry is a very complicated and sometimes weirdly individual thing, and while there are undoubtedly people who've benefited from Paxil, I think it's useful to have a clearer narrative of what the very possible downsides are beyond some rattled-off disclaimers on a commercial.
So by taking SSRIs to hack your brain's level of shyness you might actually end up dampening your entrepreneurial vibes and becoming a middle-manager. Crazy, huh.
http://www.etfrc.com/ChemicalImbalances.htm
"No experiment has ever shown that anyone has an "imbalance" of any neurotransmitters or any other brain chemicals."
Alternatively, ask an honest psychiatrist whether anyone has any solid idea just why the drugs work, when they work. Or why they don't, when they don't.
"How are the chemical imbalances which are the supposed basis for the prescription of "antidepressants" diagnosed? Is exploratory neurosurgery performed, using some technique that allows the surgeon to quantify synaptic transmitter levels? No, the very idea is absurd. Is a spinal tap, then, done to at least measure, on a gross scale, the distribution of neurotransmitter metabolites? Of course not – how many people have undergone spinal taps before receiving a prescription for Effexor®? Is blood at least drawn, to test something? No. This diagnosis – the diagnosis of the most subtle of chemical disorders in the most complex organ in the body – is made on the basis of the patient's report of feeling sad and lethargic. Try to imagine a hematologist diagnosing leukemia this way to get a sense of just how ridiculous this idea is."
"The principal reason for rejecting biopsychiatry (aside from the fact that intellectual honesty demands its rejection) is that it locates the cause of psychic suffering in people's "bad brains," and excludes the conditions of modern life, or anything else, from consideration as the cause of such pain."
Note also that the author defends your right to take any drug, if you wish to. However, he defends it from the personal freedom point of view, and attacks the (popular yet unfounded) notion that these drugs return the individual to some nebulous ideal of "mental health."
I write code for medical devices for a living; if a substance found in the body is therapeutically interesting, then someone, somewhere has built an instrument to measure it :-)
There is no doubt that we can measure the concentration of dopamine or serotonin in an aqueous solution (and eventually, within a brain.) Whether there can be any clinical point to such a measurement is debatable.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperament_and_Character_Inven...
[2] http://www.anthropediafoundation.org/site/PageServer?pagenam...
Perhaps being depressed makes me more creative. Perhaps the medication suppresses something inadvertantly, who knows (AFAIK, no one does, at least for now). But there was a definite correlation between the SSRI and my creative side.
The issue arises when people associate the good track record of emergency care with preventative treatment - so essentially take what's prescribed as gospel. Would you take investment advice from a great pig farmer? Dental advice from a good banker? Art advice from a physicist?
I would imagine that pharma will have to tread very carefully over the next decade, as the cumulative resuls of drug-trials like these start to create an interesting track record. However, spin-doctoring is everything....
From Drugs.com... "What should I avoid while taking Paxil?
Avoid drinking alcohol, which can increase some of the side effects of Paxil."
http://www.drugs.com/paxil.html
From rxlist.com "...Alcohol
Although PAXIL does not increase the impairment of mental and motor skills caused by alcohol, patients should be advised to avoid alcohol while taking PAXIL...."
http://www.rxlist.com/paxil-drug.htm
There usually a pretty good reason for medical warnings. Sherlock here made that pretty clear. He was warned not to drink alcohol. He drank. The side effects of the medication became more intense when mixed with alcohol just as he was told would happen.
If you are warned by a doctor and/or pharmacist not to mix alcohol with a medication, then don't mix alcohol with that medication.
I hate to say it, but this article is trollish. He isn't depressed. He doesn't have social anxiety disorder, he's just shy. He doesn't get therapy or join toast masters, he just pops the pill and then gets drunk all the time.
And it doesn't work wonders for him. Who woulda thought?
Exactly. Coming full circle to the point you actually derive happiness from what you once eschewed is probably the most important thing you can ever teach yourself to do.
I was always very shy, and had problems opening up to others. I was isolated and depressed, so I saw a psychiatrist. I took Paxil and had intensive (and expensive) therapy, and over the course of a year I opened up and learned to enjoy other people. After that I did not require the Paxil, and I am much more outgoing.
The side effects were not much fun: sweating, inability to orgasm or to feel orgasms, insomnia, etc. and yes Paxil made me love alcohol too. The side effects of depression however were much worse, and Paxil addressed those.
In combination with therapy it totally changed my life, and probably saved it. Its not a recreational drug, however, and the author seemed to use it as such.
The very existence of the tweeters and facebooks tell something about that need to reward extroverts.
I guess it depends on your specific case.
It was once explained to me that depression is somewhat like a deep pit, with slippery sides that get steeper and steeper....once you are in a certain depth, you need a rope to get out.
Over the last year or two, I have begun to really understand how true that can be, learning to control how deep my moods get, and use the people, world, and experiences around me to keep myself from going beyond that self-salvageable depth.
For me talking about anxiety and OCD stuff was the biggest help. So many people go through the same thing but you think your the only one and are afraid to talk about it, because oh no people may think Im crazy. Yet were all the same! Though even after talking about my issues it generally took some years and feeling comfortable in my own skin was the end all cure.
Im not saying anti-depressants don't work, but for me they were pointless. Time and talking about my issues with friends/others was my cure!
but then again, I am to lazy to do a long run periodically