A man, a vision, and the swimming pool he built in his garage | Hacker News Reader

A man, a vision, and the swimming pool he built in his garage

urbanitebaltimore.com

71 pointsshard44 comments

Not many stories actually make me laugh-out-loud, this one was an exception. I think it was the picture of his four daughters smiling in the picture that took me over the top!

I thought I was doing good with creating a square-foot-garden with my kids (http://www.toddalewis.com/square-foot-gardening.aspx)... hard to compete with an "indoor" swimming pool.

But your project is a lot more practical... I sent the link to my wife, and we decided to do something similar with our children next spring, who will be 1 and 3 years old by then. Please do post more info/links/advice/lessons learned!

Absolutely. My projects tend to be pretty dumb and over the top...but this rates right up there.

I actually worked building pools during one summer[1], so I would have went a more traditional poured concrete route. I probably would have also had a plan to fill the pool in and cap it with concrete if I planned on selling the house.

Kudos on the indoor garden - I was just thinking of building one, but spring is near.

[1] Caveat - I worked almost every variety of job during high school in a small town...so the 'experience' factor is minimal. Mechanic several times/several farm jobs/baker/librarian/general contractor/factory/etc

You can't fill in the pool, unless you want a few foot difference from road height to the height of the garage.

There was no digging involved when putting in the pool, he just put it down on top of the old garage floor.

Why fill in the pool? Just turn it into a sub-garage room and market it to the buyer as a wine cellar or a "food riot panic room" :)

Totally awesome! Too bad if the city ever find out, he'll be in trouble - sometimes government is a little too rule oriented.

And this makes we want to put one in my basement - I get water in there anyway, and the concrete floor is all cracked.

Yes, damn those governments and their insistence on rationality and safety and all that nonsense.

You seem to be being sarcastic. But a guy did this inside his own house. Do you really think the government should come in and save him from himself? Why?

The article didn't give a good description of the area around this guy's house... I, for one, would be concerned if I found out one of my neighbors had 3000 gallons of water in a poorly structured container in his garage. A collapse would most definitely affect me and my neighborhood. Aside from the inconveniences that would be caused, the neighborhood could very well end up stuck with the bill for repairing damage done to infrastructure (street, sewer, underground power lines, ...)

For what it's worth, I'd also be concerned if I found out my neighbor was: stockpiling firearms, making meth in his bathtub, keeping pet tigers, storing 3000 gallons of gasoline in a tank in his garage. I'm not trying to make a direct comparison, just hopefully illuminating the fact that it might not all be about the government "[saving] him from himself"

Aside from the inconveniences that would be caused, the neighborhood could very well end up stuck with the bill for repairing damage done to infrastructure (street, sewer, underground power lines, ...)

After criminal damage is done, the state can press charges. Everything else is a very slippery slope.

As an example, imagine your neighbor has a gas stove and accidentally leaves it on, unlit, all day. A pilot light turns on, and the house explodes, causing hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage.

Should the government ban gas stoves? How about electricity?

Finally, stockpiling firearms, making meth in the basement, keeping pet tigers, and storing 3000 gallons of highly-flammable liquid is not the same as having a small swimming pool. The things you list are generally illegal in all circumstances, but having a swimming pool is never illegal. Also, water just isn't that dangerous. The pool collapsing would probably not cause any more damage than watering a tree and forgetting you left the hose on.

So, as I mentioned earlier, you are heading down a very slippery slope. Individual rights should trump the possibility of "inconvenience" to your neighbors.

If anyone should be upset, it's this guy's insurance company.

Building codes exist for a reason, simple as that.

So... once somebody creates a code that makes it perfect and right and unquestionable?

I don't think the government should ban gas stoves, but I don't want my neighbor running his own gas lines that don't meet the building codes.

Can we agree that there is a grey area which covers where lines should be drawn in terms of personal rights vs. infringing the rights of others? It is certainly the crux of our system of government.

We obviously disagree where the line is in this particular case, and I totally respect your vigilance.

I do take issue with your statement "having a swimming pool is never illegal" -- that is certainly incorrect, at least by definition of the building codes in the jurisdiction I live in.

But I agree, we are surrounded by slippery slopes.

I seriously doubt 3,000 gallons of water in someone's garage poses any risk to the neighbors. It's not something I would want my upstairs neighbor to have, but he's in a house. Realistically it's probably .3-4" of water spread out over his property. Much less than a heavy rain storm. There's no way that would have an effect on the sewer or power systems. They just had a sewer line bust in my town and in 2 hours it leeched 460,000 gallons. It barely made the news and only did so because it had broken before and made a sewage geyser (sounds like Mike Rowe should help fix it). 3,000 gal is literally a drop in the bucket.

1, He empties it one day = the side walls now have the Earth pressure on the outside but nothing on the inside and so collapse inwards taking down you neighbors walls. Why do you think they put those big metal retaining walls down the side of excavations in the street?

2, It leaks and 250,000l of water flows out under the house washing away the soil that the foundations stand on. His neighbours house falls into the hole.

3, The houses were built on a concrete raft (common where the ground is unstable) he has just cut a big hole in the raft, it cracks and his nieghbours house falls over.

That's ignoring the risks from dumping that much water into the drainage system, leaking chemicals, humidity/damp etc.

What? Problems can happen sure, but lets not exaggerate.

1, I can't say for sure, but I think it's a free standing garage. Plus it was standing just fine without water pressure on it before he started. Plus water barely puts any pressure outward anyway (most of the pressure is right near the floor).

2, 3,000 gallons is 11,000l. So how is it going to leak 250,000l of water? I don't think any residential water meter could put out that much water in a week! And that for a full pressure leak. So totally bogus.

3, he specifically did not cut into the slab.

That much water? What much water? He's not dumping anything. And if it was a regular pool he would be doing exactly that, without you getting all worked up over it.

You want to explain problems with what he did - fine. But don't exaggerate, and make up non-existent problems.

Sorry I misread the article - from the picture I thought he had dug a hole in the foundations of a building for an underground pool. A surface pool (even inside a garage) is no more of a risk than a free standing pool in the garden. And the 25,000 was in lbs not kg.

... It's an above ground pool. The water would hit the concrete garage floor and go outside (and probably some of it going directly down the inside drain) down the driveway and into the gutter. But instead if it went into his yard it would be nothing more than a rain storm--no houses are washing away.

yes because someone else coming over to the house may not realize that this is dangerous, craptastic, etc. dude may actually be setting himself up for a huge liability should this ever fail on an unsuspecting guest....his house insurance won't cover it, its non-permitted work

in any case he'll have to remove it if the house ever goes up for sale, there's no way that would pass inspection. the first thing an inspector will ask for is the permit for the work

AFIK he didn't modify the garage, so once it's time to sell all he has to do is drain it, disassemble it and no one will be the wiser.

House insurance doesn't necessarily extend to a free standing garage, so he might be cleared there too, he just has to hope nothing disastrous happens to it.

If the pool collapses with his kids in it, they might be killed. That plus the issue with damage to neighbors seems to provide a valid government interest to me.

How would they be killed? It's effectively a large hot tub sitting in his garage. No more dangerous either.

If it blew out the walls of the garage, then the roof would collapse. That doesn't bode well for anyone under the roof at that time.

Notice I said rule oriented, and not intrusive or other similar words. You are right that they should insist on safety etc., and I have no problem with that.

But what's the chance that they will evaluate the safety of this, vs. saying - no engineering plans? No inspector? No permit? Fail, big fine, and we'll bill you for demolition.

And not even evaluate the specifics.

no permit = ripped down at owners expense, pure and simple

I don't want to pay for a government inspection of this type of crap after the fact. It's far less expensive for the public to simply force him to take it down at his own expense if he lacks the proper inspections / permits. However, it's unlikely to become an issue until something bad happens which IMO is a reasonable compromise.

That's the among the most naive bits of work I've ever seen.

Concrete carries essentially no bending or tension loads. I'm amazed it's stood up to this amount of additional pressure.

The total weight of the pool is effectively meaningless. The load per square inch = weight of water at that depth. Thus the pressure at the top of the pool is effectively zero. At the bottom it's around .42psi/foot * 3feet = 1.3psi which is not all that bad. Anyway, I suspect the load is actually less than the average basement wall which often holds back 6 feet or more of soil.

Didn't he brace the outside of it with 2x4's?

Now, I'm not a structural engineer. However, if at the bottom of the pool you can crush/shear/buckle/etc concrete, you should also be able to crush/shear/buckle/etc six-year-old-girl, right? I'm betting the bending and tension load resistance of 6 year old girls are decidedly suboptimal for residential construction.

I see photographic evidence of six year old girl, decidedly uncrushed.

If I were him, I would look very carefully every day for 45 degree cracks in the concrete below the pool. 45 degree cracks in the concrete indicate that a structural condition may exist (e.g. the load bearing of the concrete is significantly compromised) (other angles than 45 are ok).

Nobody who knew that would build such a contraption in the first place.

The thing I'd worry about is that a collapse seems most likely when the kids are using the pool. It is irresponsible. He should have poured concrete, perhaps on bearings so the whole thing could be removed in the future.

Totally. If you're worried about water rocking back and forth, kids playing marco polo would seem like the most likely cause.

The author of the article seems to mention how heroically he ignored all of the educated naysayers. We'll see how heroic he sounds when his children are dead and he's in jail for criminal negligence.

OK, if you want to pick the dangerous part of this, folks, it is NOT the construction. It is the fact of there being a pool, itself. Standing water kills children. It is one of the most prolific killers of children in the United States -- not as bad as that noted scourge, plastic buckets, but almost there.

Seriously -- we have REALLY warped senses of what is dangerous. What is the scenario for the pool "collapsing" when his children are playing in it? A 60 pound girl waves her arm displacing perhaps 2 pounds of water at a few inches per second, which then pounds the surrounding concrete to dust, causing it to fly at supersonic speeds into the water, in the direction opposite the water pressure? I didn't exactly do so great in physics but I'm finding that sort of unlikely.

The most likely failure -- his pool springs a serious leak. The garage gets written off. Oh well.

This is even cooler than the guy that built a Lamborghini in his basement!

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=350019

Crazier, maybe. I'd say Lamborghinis are inherently cooler than swimming pools. (unless you meant thermally)

"Paul" sounds like he stepped out of a Faulkner or Hemingway novel.

As a resident, I can assure you that your statement describes a fair number of Baltimoreans.

Am I the only one who finds such stories depressing? It depresses me that so much effort has to be spent on living in some place.

Any more pics? I can't really picture how it looks? I wonder why he didn't just get an engineer to help him out?

Wow, haha. This story gives everyone hope!

he's going to have a hell of a time parking his car in there...

good luck passing a housing inspection there dude...presuming he wants to be buried in the house after this bit of idiocy, cuz he'll never sell it

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