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One of the problem in France is the dire state of the political discourse, full of empty diatribes and finger-pointing that prevent focus on real, practical problems with painful solutions. Sadly your commentary is an example of this. Immigration is not a problem to the welfare state (it has been shown that new immigrants pay off for what they obtain) and socialists are not the only culprits when the welfare state you're complaining about takes its origin in conservative De Gaulle era and more than 2/3 of the national debt originates from years when right-wing governments were in power.

France needs to change its course, of course. Off the top of my head, I can cite two or three reforms that are badly needed: adopt the "flexicurity" Scandinavian system with flexible hiring/firing and great investment of the state in helping people finding job again, to reduce risks for employers and prevent people to fall in the shitty long-term unemployment; reform entirely the unfair and ineffective tax system to get rid of loopholes and reduce the tax rate and pay for welfare with progressive income tax instead of get money from poor worker's salary. These are centrists policies and despite all the shit thrown in political discourse right now, they have slightly better chance to be implemented by the current Socialist Party in power (which is very centrist in acts, albeit not in speech) than by what the main right wing party is currently heading to right now. But that's just my opinion.

This is the single most insightful comment in this thread.

That's close to what the Economist said on that issue - the socialists have the political power to make such reports.

These are centrist reforms - partly libertarian, partly social, but given the current status of France they are among the only possible solutions.

Regarding immigration, it's not a problem when it's selected immigration like some country do - say Canada. Immigration is a problem if you are welcoming workers with little education, who come from social or religious group who holds their beliefs are superior and better than anyone else's, and are more likely to develop hatred towards the host country and grow that hate when they are forced into a social net they have no hope of escaping - and that'll also be forced on their kids due to racism etc.

How good could it be for say Isreal to welcome immigration in open arms from say Iran ? I'm not talking of their nuclear scientists, remember- unselective immigration. IMHO, it wouldn't be good at all, which may be why they are not doing it :-)

>Immigration is a problem if you are welcoming workers with little education, who come from social or religious group who holds their beliefs are superior and better than anyone else's, and are more likely to develop hatred towards the host country and grow that hate when they are forced into a social net they have no hope of escaping - and that'll also be forced on their kids due to racism etc.

Are you quoting Rush Limbaugh?

>How good could it be for say Isreal to welcome immigration in open arms from say Iran ?

This doesnt make sense, there were plenty of Iranian Jews who immigrated to Isreal. From what I understand, Isreal will take you if you are Jewish, they aren't very selective.

If Isreal will take you if you are Jewish, that seems selective. It doesn't seem to be than >50% of the Iranian population is Jewish.

Maybe it means they will welcome people less "likely to develop hatred towards the host country" because of their preexisting beliefs and religion?

I was just pointing put that your statement on Iran was obviously false.

I never understood why France had such a hard time with muslim immigrants when they seem to completely integrate in the states within one generation. I'm sure it has to do more with the differences between Americans and French then...the immigrants themselves.

Yeah, like there is no problem whatsoever in places as different as the Netherlands, and Australia.

But you're right it seems to be working fine in the US for muslims. Something certainly related to the american culture and how open it is.

I think Europeans are just not as open (read: non-racist) as they claim to be, while Americans are the opposite: they are not as closed as they appear to be, they just let all their anxiety out first and then just assimilate as normal.

Or let's put it this way: the French go out of their way to push a "French" culture on their immigrants; whereas "American" culture isn't really defined and is very organic, meaning, like gravity, we all tend to just converge.

Well, fortunately there is no country that is to France what Iran is to Israel. Or is it? :)

A good part of the economic immigration today is from Africa, and they are a bit more educated and far more hard-working than one could believe (being a doctor in some African places is really not easy and you earn more washing a rich white man's dirty clothes). The problem with immigration in France seems more to have with second and third generations: kids born in France but that are not integrated in the society. They seem completely lost and without future and a lot of them evolve badly to either crime or religious extremism. If I had to point fingers, I would give a shared responsibility between public policies that have done nothing to integrate them (with school in suburbs filled with inexperienced teachers for example), racial prejudice and a lack of culture from the uneducated parents that are unable to show a good path to their kids.

Selective immigration is not so easy. If they really want to, people will come, eventually. If you put hurdles in their path, you only make their integration more difficult. Speaking of the Canadian example, I am in Canada right now, and my wife being a recruiter for a call center, she hires a lot of smart immigrants who actually hold the equivalent of a Master or even a PhD. Their diploma was given in France or another European country, but it is not recognized in Canada (it is often the case for medical professions which are very locked up in Quebec). Now these doctors and researchers call people to sell them washing machines or baby diapers. That's a waste.

Update: speaking of my wife and immigration, she is Romanian and had a lot of trouble finding a job in France, due to all the restrictions that Romanian nationals still suffer when they want to access the job market, and also her uncommon education path (she hold business degree from Romania and psychology degree for German university, which is great anywhere except in France when the culture of education is favoring people coming from one of the few elitist schools). One of our main reason to move to Canada was our bet that it would be easier for her there, Canadian being more open to people like her. It proved right, and she got jobs very easily. That's a huge loss for France, because she is a very smart woman! :)

> Don't forget that should you succeed you'd be regarded with jalousy and hatred.

While the rest of your article may have some exaggerations, that's true and that's what is shaping my decision. I can live with some insecurity, I can live with deadbeat companies trying to avoid paying their bills and laws preventing me from hiring - I'll just go solo and focus on foreign clients.

But if on top of that I'm hated and discriminated against (that's common when your name doesn't sound french) sorry but that's just too much.

BTW for the people who do not know France let me precise what the "military" mentioned by this poster is : there are squads or 3 to 5 soldiers, in full uniform with machine guns in their hand patrolling in some places. I don't know if it's supposed to make me feel safe or not. And you can be asked "your papers" by policemen for no reason that not looking exactly like what they expect. (I once took the train to work every day - when they did that for the 4th time straight, I just said I had forgotten them (I had!) and suggested they arrest me. they ducked out. That's just plain intimidation)

And BTW to those who say it's anecdotal evidence, just go live there! Try it for yourself. Vote with your feet. When it is in the media and your family is attacked and you see people being attacked too, all the while being hated for being successful maybe you'll sing a different tune.

I'm happy to be on the right side of the atlantic, in the FWI where making money is well regarded, people start business, and you generally feel safe. The population is quite diverse in the Caribbean, and - for now it's working just fine! There's not so much hate!

We certainly have unemployment and some stupid french laws to deal with, but with different tax brackets, and overall it's IHMHO not a bad choice.

PS: to those who downvote my original article, I tried to be factual and fully honest. You can hate the truth, but it remains the truth.

I live there, just next to the train station that you describe as being in a war state, and while there are worrying incidents in the outskirts and suspicious neighbourhoods, center Paris is by far the safest city I've ever lived in, and the only one where my women friends feel safe enough to walk alone at 3am. If we're playing the anedoctal evidence game, the only place I was ever seriously threatened ("I will kill you", at gunpoint and with evil eyes) was in your beloved Caribbean, in the beautiful island of Saint Lucia.

Please enlighten me.

Were you living in the Caribbean, or just a tourist? What were you doing? By any chance, were you going to the friday night?

(St Lucia is right next to my island - been there too, there is some unsafety but nothing too worrying)

There is not so much hate- we have people from all shapes and colors, and all creeds too. But FYI, in some places, including in the FWI, you should know tourist are not very welcome. They look for the sun, booze, girls but also for trouble. They hold sightseeing tours on the most poverty stricken areas and are arrogant. Many of them see local as dummies from the 3rd world.

So we don't really like them - personally I don't. We are not a bordello or a zoo, but just normal places were people work and live.

I was in the docks, arriving by boat from another island. Like everyone in that boat, we were held up for many hours waiting to get our passport stamped and a bunch of young locals started harassing our girlfriends (we were 6). We were the last to leave the passport check because officers didn't know what to do with people from my country (apparently we were the first ones there, so the passports were held). When we got out, these guys were waiting for us in a pickup truck outside and I walked up to them to have a chat before things got out of control, and while we were still next to the customs office. It's an open world we're living in. I realize many tourists can be unpleasant and disrespectful, but hating tourists is just as stupid as hating immigrants. If you don't like their actions, put rules in place to avoid them.

I'm wondering where else you have lived, just to correctly frame your comment.

I've met the militairy police in Paris as well. I was obviously not French (way too tall for the average French guy, can't talk the language and not wearing French-looking clothes). Intimidating bunch. One even flipped open his holster holding his pistol before talking to me in front of the subway. Couldn't understand a word he said and he wasn't really willing to talk English. Let me go on my way again. I kept thinking 'what are you going to do with a machine gun in a crowded subway? Shoot everybody?'

The nerve on that police guy ... he wasn't willing to speak English ... like if he was in your beloved US of A everyone will be chatting around with him in French. Start learning a few foreign languages before snubbing around people for not speaking "your" language.

Funny. I talk Dutch, German, English, Frisian and a little -just a little- French. But if they talk really fast I can't understand.

The FUD is strong in this post again. Please keep your political unargumented opinions for yourself.

> all the immigrants can't find job and suddenly they accelerate the fall of the GDP (due to all the wellfare-state benefits that have to be paid).

In 2009, of the 600 billion euros spent by the french government on welfare [1], 45% were allocated towards elder care, 35% towards general health care, 10% towards family welfare (which every family benefit from whatever their revenues are, and which has been praised by many nations as a major factor in France's high birth rates), and a whopping 6.1% towards unemployement aids. I'm pretty sure the numbers in 2012 aren't far from that.

So yeah, your bar counter theories on immigration and welfare being the cause of the economic crisis don't mean much when compared to real numbers.

EDIT: I'll add towards the international audience of HN that, it's true that few French don't realize how awesome health care is in France (which is one of the reasons why salaries are lower here for the middle class and above, the other reasons being education and retirement). You can go to a hospital for a severe treatment (including many treatments such as cancer which could bankrupt an individual) and get treated essentially for free. If you have a job, your health insurance usually takes care of the part (minus a tiny something) that isn't paid by Securité Sociale (the state departement that manages all health related spendings) and if you're too poor to afford a health insurance you get a universal, state-managed one which gives you most of the benefits anyway.

Where in another country, you'd have to pay thousands of euros of hospital bills for a severe condition, in France usually you'd end up paying only a couple hundred euros, perhaps less.

Of course this comes at a cost (and has drawbacks as well because people don't realize the true cost of healthcare), but that's the choice that's been made by the French society.

>Last year while on vacation in France my girlfriend was driving in a 8K convertible car (bought used for 8K). 8K. Hardly a "rich" person's car. Yet she could see the disdain and hate at trafic light from french people.

Yay for anecdotal evidence !

>Physical security is a real issue: it's really not reassuring to take the subway in Paris and exit at station "Chatelet" to see groups of heavy armed military trying to make sure the situation doesn't degenerate too quickly. [...] >The military are already in charge of subway stations and doing surveillance in front of important buildings (like Notre Dame). There are only going to be more and more of them. If the situation gets worse I expect the "couvre feu" to be put in place in big cities.

Please. The militaries are part of plan Vigipirate whose goal is to prevent terrorists attacks in risky public places. They are certainly not here for criminal violence (which, if you knew what you talk about, are the jurisdiction of the various police forces, including CRS and gendarmes).

The situation surely isn't ideal, but we're a very long way from curfews and martial law. What you're saying is pure bullshit.

>I don't mind giving Godwin the win

Yep, Godwin point. It truly shows how well argumented your message is.

[1] http://www.lepoint.fr/economie/les-prestations-sociales-ont-...

> few French don't realize how awesome health care is in France

And even fewer don't realize how good it can be in other countries too. Social security pays a percentage, the rest is up to you - you have a commercial insurance or a mutuelle. But some costs still are for your to pay.

I work in healthcare. There are countries where in fact you don't have to pay at all. They have delay issues (try Quebec!) but if you are arguing on just a cost basis that's better.

> we're a very long way from curfews and martial law

No, not very long. There are already riots every 3 to 4 years, large scale ones.

You have the left that's ignoring the economic situation, the right that's discredited and the far-right that's banking on the situation, saying things that may make sense to the common voter, but if they get in power won't be so good for the country (and for that I would accept a Godwin point)

We badly miss a libertarian party in France. There's no hope in sight. Between the socialist and the fascist, the poster has good reasons to be worried, even if there are some exaggerations. Just look at what happened to Chile, Spain etc.

If there was a way to make a profit on my bet, I'd bet on civil war in mainland france within 15 years - and edge my bet with a smaller one, curfew and martial law within 10 years.

> They have delay issues (try Quebec!)

Yeah .. 2 or 3 weeks to get a appointent with a doctor, 6 to 8h at the emergency service at the hospital. I prefer to be sick in France than in Quebec.

> There are already riots every 3 to 4 years, large scale ones.

Come on ! There was 2005[0], and 2007[1] but that's all. Both were due to a police blunder (or at least a supposed one). Only civil security handled it. There was no army involved.

Appart from these two ones, I don't recall any other "riot". And they are very localised (very poor suburbs).

> If there was a way to make a profit on my bet, I'd bet on civil war in mainland france within 15 years - and edge my bet with a smaller one, curfew and martial law within 10 years.

I hear that sentence since 20 years. It's a banality that is said by a lot of french right extremists and racists. They dream of a war to get rid of immigrants. It's sad and start to be boring.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_civil_unrest_in_France [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_civil_unrest_in_France

You seems biased.

I'm PRAYING that there will not be a war, and that immigrants will find a way to feel happy in the society, and that the french society will welcome them.

This will require a lot of changes on both sides- but for now, only hate is growing.

I'm just very sorry I don't see that happening. I'm making predictions, hoping I'll be proved wrong.

I'm not saying French health care is magical (comes at no cost) or perfect (could not be improved), I'm just saying that it's pretty damn good, and that for the majority of French people it turns out to be something they want to keep.

>No, not very long. There are already riots every 3 to 4 years, large scale ones.

It's all a question of perspective. We haven't seen anything like the LA riots, for example. And riot control has been for decades the jurisdiction of the police force and I sincerely doubt there would be the need for the army to intervene.

>If there was a way to make a profit on my bet, I'd bet on civil war in mainland france within 15 years - and edge my bet with a smaller one, curfew and martial law within 10 years.

I wouldn't be so sure.

>We badly miss a libertarian party in France. There's no hope in sight.

There's no hope in sight unfortunately because the whole political system is tightly controlled by politicians and closed to any new party. But I don't think that the grass is much greener anywhere else in the world.

Perhaps some of his post might not be completely true, but I expect much the same. Recently I read that unemployment in France has risen to 15%. More unemployment means more people have little money to spend. Because of less spending, there will be reduced export from Northern-Europe countries to Southern-Europe countries. As a result unemployment in Northern-Europe will rise as well.

If the situation stays like this for a while, social unrest will increase. The increased social unrest could create a very nasty situation in Europe.

I really hope I have a chance to emigrate from my country (The Netherlands) in the next 5 years or so, cause I don't expect the situation to improve, at least not without lots of violence involved.

Apparently we share the same analysis. No hate, just plain facts.

Europe seems up for a very nasty situation indeed. The nobel peace price for the EU was to remind Europe that in the past they had been at war every 40 years or so, but since 1980 they had stopped that bad habit (let's ignore the balkans)

Maybe Europe will see the light? I hope so, but I don't see that happening at the moment.

"The military are already in charge of subway stations and doing surveillance in front of important buildings (like Notre Dame). There are only going to be more and more of them. If the situation gets worse I expect the "couvre feu" to be put in place in big cities."

This is because of the war in Mali, and 'vigipirate' protective plan. Your rant could be interesting, but unfortunately, it plays facts instead of trying to understand them.

You left, great for you. But don't bother coming back to vote, leave that decision to people who live in France and are impacted by it. Sarkozy did nothing good for France and we don't need another president like him.

What are you thoughts, or maybe anyone else's on South America?

Argentina, Chile, or Brazil?

Honestly my 1st choice : Canada : close to the US, business friendly especially in provinces like AB.

Then in fact in my 2nd choice : South America.

Chile +++ but I've never been there. I considered spending some time to check for myself if for some reason I don't follow my 1st choice. I considered Uruguay too. Both seem like good place to start a business, at least just as good as Europe in my line of work. I'm just concerned about the "distance" to fly to North America and Europe (clients, family, etc) and the added costs. [I'm considering India too in this 2nd choices]

Brazil +, more violent crime than in France, but more opportunities.

Argentina : unknown. Seems to go down in flames, just like France (sorry for any argentinian, I'm just casting an opinion based on gut feeling without much proofs)

Argentina: it's going down in flames at an alarming pace, but has been doing so for the past decade. Every ten years there is an Earth shattering crisis in the country, and there has been a 25-30% inflation for the past 4 years, likely to grow. There is a pararel market for US dollars, as it is controlled and it's almost impossible to buy legally (unless you are travelling overseas, 60 USD per day with a top of 1000 USD per trip, 2 trip max per year).

If you have international clients, you'll get ARS at the official rate (5 ARS == 1 USD) but will have to pay international providers with the parallel rate (8 ARS == 1 USD). That alone, coupled with rising insecurity, blocked imports and unpredictable government, makes starting a company there a very unsound decision.

The good things about it is that you have relatively cheap workforce (30000 USD will pay a good engineer), there are many good engineers, it's in roughly the same timezone as the US (GMT-3) and culturally is much more similar to the US than, for example, India.

Having said all of the above, I've moved to the Netherlands, and couldn't be happier so far. I've been in Silicon Valley for about 3 months total, and Amsterdam is as safe as Mountain View is, but without the heavy police presence and you can actually walk anywhere (the city feels like a town in that regard). The only downside is that I'm earning about half what I'd be earning in the USA.

I've been to Paris, and although it didn't seem unsafe, the military in the streets did freak me out.

I'm hoping to plan my next holiday to Chile so I get a better feel for the country. With that said, here are my observations so far...

I suspect Chile might be an pretty good country to live in. From the Wikipedia page it's stated that perceived corruption is low. The country has a major focus on IT (start-up Chile) and has a nice Mediterranean climate around Santiago. Spanish should also be an easy language to learn, I try to follow the free DuoLingo courses. It's also a major wine country :) I really like the ValdiVieso wines from Chile.