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Comment by kirse | Hacker News Reader

Why not do something creative like have the investor sign a dollar bill (of any denomination) and give it to the founders?

Every founder comes prepared with some cash in their wallet, and then when you confirm a deal the founders ask the investors to sign the dollar bill with a Sharpie/pen. On it would be some sort of short-hand for the deal valuation... Cash is more ubiquitous than phones - even impromptu, it's highly likely one person will have a cash on them - plus you don't have to deal with sharing emails, phone signal, phone battery, waiting for that text/email message to come through, blah-dee-blah.

And then you can frame it and do all sorts of other creative/cutesy stuff. If YC made it a tradition to do a "signed cash" deal as a way of indicating the confirmation of a deal, it'd make for a cool way of looking back at all the great (or not-so-great) investments... sort of like that whole "my first dollar" thing some people do.

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That's an amusing idea. It would be fine with me if that variant evolved. But it would have seemed frivolous if we'd proposed that.

The more you do things like that the idea becomes balkanized and you move further from your intention which is nice, simple, easy to remember and understand.

I keep wishing someone takes up the frighteningly ambitious idea here: developing a low-friction government approved (through e.g. legal precedent) service for signing data.

After a passport/identiy check it would technically just be a highly available service to cryptographically sign blobs, coupled with a mechanism to handle retractions of signed data in case of compromised keys and a decently advanced notification system for early detection of suspected fraud.

On a societal level however, this would enable anything from frictionless contract signing apps to building a Kickstarter for organizing ad-hoc grass-roots referendums whose results are provably meaningful.

I just bought a house and never signed one piece of paper in the process (up to the closing, of course. Then I signed several hundred pieces of paper.)

All of the contractual agreements until then were signed digitally through DocuSign and they even have a nifty little iphone app. Of course they were all contracts written by my lawyers, but that counts as data. The concept of a written signature is far less relevant than it used to be. As people have mentioned actually signing a piece of paper digitally or otherwise isn't required for many legally binding contracts. (For example, my previous lease on my apartment was an email exchange between me and my landlord agreeing on the terms. Had he or I broken the terms of it, it would have been enforceable in court (in IL at least; anywhere else I couldn't say.))

Okay, so DocuSign seems to be quite close. For my idea you'd have to imagine DocuSign with:

- an OAuth(-like) API for other sites, e.g. Reddit, to sign micro-data on your behalf.

- the ability to retract signatures after time X and notify subscribers of that data of it.

- [optionally] a fraud detection algorithm to give advance warning of possible malicious usage (app compromised or your app password.)

- the ability to request confirmation of a signature before time X for cases where retraction after that moment is unaccaptable.

That would make it possible for webapps to have every interaction with it be provably performed by the user, turning it into a legally valid audit trail.

There you go: http://www.guardtime.com/

I think you missed my point. It'd be quite hard to build e.g. third-pary petition site on GaurdTime.

The other comment's DocuSign suggestion comes closer, but I also doubt DocuSign offers support for third parties to do micro-signing through an API.

>Cash is more ubiquitous than phones

Are you sure? Right now I have a phone but I don't have any cash.

Unless I'm explicitly buying something with cash, I'm almost always in the state of no cash, but with my phone.

The last time I had cash on my person, it was because I was traveling, and wanted some on hand. I haven't carried cash, as a rule, in almost a decade.

I'm not in the valley, but I have the opposite policy: I systematically use cash unless it is not possible to do so. (It's better for privacy.)

I have your policy, but for a different reason: I generally don't want the merchant to be charged a fee for the transaction.

Totally valid reason. I use cards for the sake of ease of tracking and protections offered by cards. I wish there were an optimal situation wherein you had privacy and protection both.

I have a feeling that it's regional. I live in Boston, and there are still significant amounts of restaurants that don't take credit cards.

I just created a poll to find out the statistics among HNers. Please vote: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5377521

Yep, here in NZ I never have cash and make electronic payments for everything (even $1 convenience transactions).

Numerous Reasons:

o Everyone has a mobile device at all times, trying to remember to carry cash and/pens is an extra step. Cash, in the valley, is not as ubiquitous as a phone. In fact, it's not as ubiquitous as a smart phone.

o Texting is instantaneous. In fact, when we're sitting at a table having a conversation, it's not unusual for some people to be texting each other instead of talking to avoid creating a break in the conversation / side conversation.

o Central, Secure, two-party tracking with SMS/WhatsApp/iMessage. Nice Audit trail as well, and you have it all handy on your phone to keep track of things. Nobody wants to deal with more little pieces of paper.

OK people, I get it, you don't carry cash, etc etc. I'm just imagining myself using whatever I have on me to come to a quick agreement on a precise valuation and secure a solid "affirmative" from an investor, beyond a basic verbal agreement.

So whether that's scrawled on a dollar bill, transmitted officially via the "PG Handshake Protocol", or signed on your ass with a picture in the mirror for posterity... doesn't matter, have fun with it and get it done!

Well, my arguments for Cash would be:

o Physical Tokens continue to have real value beyond the ephemerality of digital data.

o A scrawled signature is both somewhat of an validation of identification, plus, it's a somewhat more concrete step than just sending an email. There is ceremony around it.

o With a bit of thought, you can create a Mini-Term sheet that can be signed/counter signed.

o Sharpie on Dollar bill is harder to modify / change - particularly if you have a number of signatures that have been built up on it.

o That multi-signed dollar bill would have a lot of potency, particularly if you are able to assemble a top-tier investment group. Suitable for framing.

If a dollar bill is signed, only one party has a record (which can easily be spent and conveniently lost forever). If an email is sent, both parties have a record.

What I like most about is that it embodies the idea that funding is an end rather than a means. Rather than commemorating revenue you're celebrating funding. It's perfect for the VC centric world of Silicon Valley.

This is a fantastic idea, and there is no reason that this couldnt be an option to the Handshake Protocol.

Also, these bills will be sold off and collected when massive failures happen in later years.

Don't forget to do it before witnesses, preferably a Secret Service agent.

"-STATUTE- Whoever mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or perforates, or unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, or Federal Reserve bank, or the Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt unfit to be reissued, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both. "

18 USC CHAPTER 17 - COINS AND CURRENCY http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/18C17.txt

Some rules are meant to be broken.

Important text: with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt unfit to be reissued

No destroying money for the express purpose of destroying money.

Exactly! My comment refers to actually making a bill potentially MORE valuable in its re-issuance to another party after the signing event!

(legality of such statement to be reviewed by people qualified to do so, and kudos to those that find in favor and BOOOOO to those who admonish!)

So the K Foundation stunt (burning £1million in cash) would have been illegal in the US?

At least for us, almost all of our "handshake" confirmations for funding came over email after we had met with the investor in person or the phone.

This is exactly the same handshake deal the founders of Fairchild Semiconductor did with each other.

"And then you can frame it and do all sorts of other creative/cutesy stuff."

Restaurants do that frequently with their first sale. (Cynically: The other $$ end up in their pockets, untaxed).

Reminds me of Ron Conway's Google receipt investment story. Signing on a dollar bill is interesting. Small shops/cafes frame the first dollar bill they earned. Similarly, founders can frame the first 'dollar' investment.

People are more likely to carry a smartphone than a sharpie.

Other than that, I really like your idea.

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