Chinese clone of StackOverflow. Uses even the same design, built using django.
cnprog.com
cnprog.com
i18n is a technical issue. It cannot solve the issue of "community". There needed to be a Chinese StackOverflow (not a language-translated UI for the same site), and now there is.
If your server isn't in China, it may as well not exist. You heard me right. If you want a regular user base interacting with your app in China, you must have a server in a data center in China. To run such a server in China, you must have an ICP (Internet Content Provider) license. These licenses can only be held by a Chinese national. If you are running a U.S. or EU based SaaS and do not understand this and do not partner with someone in China that can run your Chinese version of your service, you may eventually get copied. Its not about right or wrong. Its a matter of access for your users.
There is nothing devious about this Chinese "StackOverflow". Its clearly a copy and the writers open sourced it. I have seen devious. This isn't it.
Congrats again!!! This is a great step forward for the China programmer community.
...and congrats to StackOverflow for making something worth copying.
StackOverflow is CC-SA 2.5 licensed. The "derivative" site is also CC-SA 2.5 licensed. They both have clearly different audiences. I don't see a problem.
* 4 prominent attributions: SO attributions on his blog, the google code main page, CC license on the new production site, and in the code itself!!!
* apache open source license
Maybe he is not in full compliance yet, but this is one hell of a good start and demonstrates good faith.
I think the proper way of attribution would be a link (or message) in the footer or, at the very least, on the about page. Maybe I'm being pedantic, but if I need to search for the attribution by going to the developers blog or viewing the source code, I don't think that's enough.
This is beside the point, because I agree that the other forms /are/ attribution, but I don't consider the creative commons link a form of attribution at all.
I wouldn't be proud doing such a thing myself, but if such a site will help our Chinese friends learn to program better, good luck to it IMO.
Still, I wouldn't be that nonchalant about stealing work. It's one thing to be inspired by Stack Overflow and build something similar, a 1-1 copy is different.
Without the community there's no need to support the language. But without the language you cannot support the community.
Part of the problem is that localization can be expensive (especially for non-Western languages) and there is no easy way for community driven sites to gauge potential returns of investing in a new language. But the fact that someone took the trouble of cloning the whole site probably indicates that there's interest out there.
Language support has absolutely nothing to do with anything in this situation. If someone produces something based on a concept already in the wild, it's OK no matter what the language situation is. But if someone outright clones a site's design, it's a dirty move no matter what the language situation is. In its worst forms it's fraudulent and deceptive, in its most innocent form it's confusing to users.
Here's your litmus test:
If both sites exist and users in China overwhelmingly chose the new China based one, doesn't it prove that this new site is providing something that the original did not or could not provide?
There's a massive difference between a competitor and a clone.
In this case, they didn't copy the software. They rewrote it from the ground up with different tools. They did copy almost 100% the look and feel. But that is not 100% of the "product"...far from it.
How closely to a pre-existing design or market space does a product need to be before it offends you? Do you have a methodology to measure this?
How much time have you spent trying to woo venture capital? In my experience, one of the first questions I get hit with is "is there anyone else doing something similar?" If the answer is no, this is a red flag.
A typical and expected elevator pitch is "its like X but for Y". Hybridization is the game here. It is common and quite acceptable to say "its like X but for China".
The creator of this new product did change something...something critical... "its like StackOverflow but for China".
"Derivative", not clone.
You are free:
- to Share — to copy, distribute and transmit the work
- to Remix — to adapt the work
Under the following conditions:
- Attribution ...
- Share Alike ...
The Chinese cite shows that it is CC-SA (right bottom corner). Furthermore it freely acknowledges that it is based on stackoverflow. You can look at the blog [here](http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=_t&hl=en&...)
Here is an [answer](http://209.85.229.132/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=...) to what the relationship is between cnprog.com and stackoverflow:
The creation of CNProg are stackoverflow inspiration comes from (see "Why CNProg.COM create?")
SO once made to us, but because of Jeff and his team are currently no plans for localization, so we have created to serve the Chinese programmers CNProg. And our platform is already open source code, welcome like-minded friends to join us, millions of programmers to provide a domestic major technical Q & A community.
I can not see that anything morally wrong was done by creating this site - and it serves a useful purpose (by helping those people who speak Chinese).
> The language argument is a red herring that appeals to an outdated, pre-communications revolution worldview
This is the typical view of an English centric person. There are billions of people for who English is not a first language and whose second language English is not up to the standard that they can communicate with.
But who cares? I am sure that there are enough Chinese -speaking people to make this site a success.
I'm not addressing the license aspect of this particular case, I'm addressing the attempt to use language support as a justification for this practice.
Furthermore it freely acknowledges that it is based on stackoverflow... The creation of CNProg are stackoverflow inspiration
There is a huge difference between inspiration and outright cloning, and many additional consequences that result from the latter.
This is the typical view of an English centric person
Just the opposite. This is the view of someone currently in France, whose first company in my 20s was based in both Hong Kong and the US, makes web apps with labels in multiple languages and therefore recognizes the utter ignorance of claiming that language is sufficient justification for outright cloning a product or service.
Jeff Atwood and co. could never "copy" the StackOverflow community into China. And that's what they would have to do..."copy it to China". I highly doubt they could have done it and maybe this new set of programmers can. What harm is there in providing a community for Chinese programmers to thrive?
Look at all Google's efforts...and they aren't the dominant search engine in China. There is too much belief that if a Western company creates a product that they have implicit rights to world domination with it. I think a fragmented world is interesting and more competitive. If it takes copying to bootstrap that fragmentation, so be it.
Which is basically all the clone is at this point.
I still think your focusing too much on "language" rather than "community".
I'm focused on language because that's the justification being given for cloning web apps. No matter what language you want to deal with, claiming that you can't build a community without entirely cloning another team's web app is asinine.
At this point its more than a clone. He published the source with a permissible license (Apache) on a well adopted platform (django).
StackOverflow gave something to the world with its licensing. The creator of this new product followed the rules and even added the bonus of immediately giving something back to the world.
Your argument was that someone can't take a web app and "copy it to China," yet this is exactly what it is at this point from the perspective of someone using the application. So, according to you now, apparently it can be done as long as the person who "cop[ies] it to China" happens to be on Chinese soil at the time and, unbeknownst to a regular user, builds it using a different web framework and open sources it.
No, in fact your origin implication was the right one: the hard part is building a community and delivering a service customized for market beyond simply changing the language, something that so far has not been done here with this application yet.
I'm not sure what your point is, actually. Cloning successful products is hardly new or even frowned upon. Indeed, the computer you are using is most likely a descendant of a cloned IBM PC. Why argue?
Its a necessary thing that it costs so much less to create a start-up like this in China. Because the returns are so much lower.
In the long term, there is hope that size (of China) trumps this problem. But we haven't seen this happen yet.
Isn't there ANY thing to improve in StackOverflow? It's a perfect design for everything? Couldn't the Chinese webmasters made a few changes they thought will improve the site? Even the colours? Even the size of the fonts?
It's all China can do? Copy western things, making them cheaper due to their lower salaries compared with Western salaries?
Because it's what it seems to be.
The "Copy western things, making them cheaper due to their lower salaries" may not be true in this case.
There have been many cases where your view applies. I just do not think so in this case.
An ethics problem with cloning a site and releasing it as open source? Under an Apache license no less?
http://code.google.com/p/cnprog/source/browse/#svn/trunk
Not only do I not have an "ethics" problem with that, I think it's a good thing.
"Isn't there ANY thing to improve in StackOverflow? "
Well, they "improved" the logo! Seriously though, it's probably a single guy. He probably can't afford a designer, hell it's probably a hobby site. He probably, like me, absolutely loathes writing CSS and so just copied the whole thing. I don't see what the big deal is; you see things like blog themes cloned/ported all the time.
And he did do a lot of work - he rewrote the whole thing in Django and released it open source! Isn't that something? Compared to the effort involved in writing the back end, the font sizes are not a big deal.
"It's all China can do? Copy western things, making them cheaper due to their lower salaries compared with Western salaries?"
Now this borders on offensive. China is not some giant hive mind, acting as a whole in pursuit of a grand shared vision. It's a nation of individuals just like the USA - if anything it's even more diverse. You don't even know if the owner of this site is in China. Regardless, shame on you for lumping "them" all together like that.
Anyway, developing countries have a long and glorious tradition of shamelessly stealing the intellectual work of their more established contemporaries, including America, back in the day. 40 years ago it was Japan stealing from the USA. Now Americans copy their cultural styles all the time. And let's not forget where that grand American company, Disney, filched all its fairytale ideas from. What do you think the Germans thought when Disney copied practically every Grimm brothers story ever written, making billions, and now dares to protect and market its "trademarks"? Doesn't seem so bad when it's your side doing it, does it? But the german newspapers of the time said exactly what you just said about China - all the Amerikaner can do is copy and hide behind convenient legal fictions.
Pull back and take the larger perspective. Stack Overflow is a good thing, right? Well, now it's open source, with a Chinese version online. It's still a good thing.
And the Chinese programmer who takes your outsourced job will be that much more knowledgeable a programmer because of it ; )
(edited to emphasise & link to the open source code for the site)
You are right there and I was wrong and too simplistic.
2 Stack Overflow is a good thing, right? Well, now it's open source, with a Chinese version online.
I haven't notice that. I just browse the site. And yes, it's a great thing, I agree with you.
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Also, why, then, there is no mention to StackOverflow at all on CNProg.com? A bit of acknowledgement will be fine, even if it's an Open Source thing.
Disclaimer: I'm not American (I'm from Spain), I'm not a programmer and do not have any problems with outsourcing at all
http://blog.cnprog.com/2009/01/why-create-cnprog/
My chinese is pretty rusty, but in the 3rd section on that page it links to stack overflow and says something like, "Stack Overflow was just released from beta, and it's really great, but slow with localisation" as a reason why this site was created.
Sorry for assuming you were American. I should have guessed from the name! Now it's me making incorrect assumptions : /
For one, it's borderline fraud if users don't know what site they are on. Perhaps that's not the case in this situation, but there are many situations where it is the case. Secondly, it's a dirty move. Cloning a website no different than creating a cola, naming it "Cokke," copying the packaging and having it stocked on shelves next to the original.
Let me begin by saying there is and never has been a promise that the first creator of something on the web has rights to world domination. Its a naive and childish notion of "mine".
The position that an English based community can serve the world shows you do not understand that the Chinese community would never have immersed themselves into the current StackOverflow community. They need their own Mandarin based "community" that is run "within China". It is a great thing to see the Chinese programming community mature. They need their own forums for this to happen. Expecting or demanding they assimilate into the English language community shows a lack of understanding of how communities form and nurture themselves.
This issue is absolutely NOT about an "English based community" or a "French based community" or an "Arabic based community" or any other language based community, it's about conducting business in the global marketplace. My first startup was based in both Hong Kong and the US, so I'm saying this from a perspective of already dealing with both markets and with an understanding product development patterns in emerging markets.
The biggest question here is that some people in the global web startup world want to pretend they can hide behind language on the internet, as if it mimics geographic borders, which it increasingly doesn't. You operate in a global marketplace and if you clone a site or app using labels with mandarin or arabic it's no different than cloning it in a language that the application supports.
In general, I do not believe there is agreement on rules for a global marketplace. You play in China, you play in that market. You play in the U.S., there are different legal and cultural rules. You want to play in both, you get two sets of rules. Despite a desire by owners of intellectual property to see a convergent gobal marketplace with one set of rules, it does not exist.
Further, I do not believe that global "monopolistic" attitude is healthy. It does not create enough room for fragmentation. Fragmentation and boundaries (physical or otherwise) enables evolution and economic growth.
People complain all the time about China not being inventive enough and copying things. How do you expect this to change without going through this process. A process that clearly is just a repeat of what many established countries did to bootstrap themselves.