Comment by BSousa | Hacker News Reader

Comment by BSousa | Hacker News Reader

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You got a lot of flack from others from this comment. To be honest, I agree with you.

I always opposed women only events, and I think these grants are also horrible.

Maybe it is an USA problem, but I worked in various industries (games, banking, insurance, B2B, B2C) all over Europe and never saw much discrimination against women (not saying didn't happen). Sure the ratios are skewed, but everywhere I worked, I worked with women, some in software development, some artists, some managers.

People want to have reasons why women are outnumbered in CS, but I truly believe that many women don't like CS (whether by biological or social pressures). When I was in university, my course (math and computer science) had a 50:50 ratio. By the last year, I say more than half switched to more 'social' courses. None I interacted with stated they were discriminated, most just said they didn't want to spend so much time in front of a computer and preferred more 'social' work. Heck, in the last year of highschool here you have to decide what uni/course you apply, except two girls from many I was friends with wanted to get a CS degree, opposed to many of the guys.

Another point. My wife loves math and chemistry and puzzle solving. She sees me programming and more than once asked me to teach her. I'm more than happy to do it, but as soon as she has to spend a lot of time in front of a computer she gives up. She's smart (probably more than me) but she just doesn't want to do such a solitary activity.

It can be social pressures since they are children to focus on more girly things, and I believe we should focus on that, but focusing the problem on adult women with these kind on initiatives is wrong. By the same token, I'm pretty sure Portuguese white males are underrepresented in Hacker School. Should I get a grant as well? What about Jamaican programmers?

Let me see if I'm hearing you right:

1) I'm a man, and I don't notice sexism, therefore it doesn't exist.

2) The women I've talked to never told me they experienced discrimination, therefore it doesn't exist.

3) My wife doesn't like programming, therefore all women don't like programming.

4) Being Portuguese is an equivalent status within the technical community as being a woman, and should be treated equivalently.

Is that what you're saying?

1) no, but I do notice this seems to be more pervasive in the USA. I have very good female friends in tech here. NONE say they notice sexism.

2) again no, and I point to 1, I am talking about my personal experience

3) For fuck's sake, really? Every woman wants to be a programmer, but we men are way too sexist to let it happen. Did you get you 'Prevent your woman from attending CS whip' yet? I sure like to use mine! That is what is fucking happening in the world. My entire post was about MY experience with women in and out of tech. Not some grand generalisation about women. But having a freaking PG idea that men and women are 100% equal, biologically is pretty dumb. Men are attracted to different things than women, and it is POSSIBLE (only possible) that CS is one of those things.

4) Why not? How many Portuguese CEO's on Silicon Valley are there? Or black CEO's? Or do we just care about the women but not native american men? Or asian? Or brazilian? Heck, if any grant should be given, it's probably to out of NY people (men and women) as they have the most to lose by moving there to attend Hacker School.

I'll tell you one thing, you can get many women here talking about being discriminated against, but honestly, as a man, I probably been more discriminated than them. I decided to take a break a while ago from CS to work with special needs children. For that I needed a degree in either elementary teaching or kindergarden teacher before getting my specialisation. I chose kindergarden. I can bet you a million bucks I was more discriminated there than any women at a Python or Ruby conference (I was sexually assaulted, I had parents refusing to let me be with their kids, I had internships refused, had bad grades as I couldn't turn in some papers as I wasn't allowed to do my job).

If you ask women who work in tech, and if they feel comfortable telling you the truth, many of them will respectfully disagree with you. Just because you do not perceive bias or discrimination does not mean it is not there. I was recently at a women's event at the Southern California Linux Expo and everybody had a story to tell. I am glad Hacker School is explicitly trying to be welcoming, because I'm sure there are talented women out there sitting on the fence about whether they are "good enough" to take a leap of faith and do something like this.

As I mentioned, and I think others have as well in other threads, this seems more like a USA thing. And I would say some of them were comfortable telling me the truth as some of them in college I was dating. In the work place I never dated any, but was close friends with some and never heard a complain. Actually, thinking about it, while the ratio is skewed in the programming front, where I worked, there was a tendency (albeit small) for women to be more represented in higher level positions. Heck, I just accepted a job leading a team at a startup where all programmers are men, but both C level executive are women.

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