Apartments So Small They Can Only Be Photographed From Above
theatlanticcities.com
theatlanticcities.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU4jjdRzy3w
Hong Kong is an intriguing city that I highly recommend to go spend some time in.
I can't really offer much of a useful statement on the realities of being chronically homeless (which is what these men essentially are) in a big city or on the root causes of the situation in Hong Kong, both social and economic. But I can say that the immediate needs of shelter, which come with a lack of space, privacy and security, are very likely to exist very close to home for anyone living in a big city. Here are some examples of sleeping arrangements for homeless in Atlanta, Chicago, Seattle and Los Angeles (some are emergency shelters, some are permanent):
http://cdn.theatlanticcities.com/img/upload/2012/01/16/Homel...
http://triblocal.com/glen-ellyn/files/cache/2011/08/OTE-sea-...
http://commongroundwa.org/people/images/portlet-images/Portl...
http://test.housing1000sv.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/she...
Fiscal conservatives must assume this or their philosophy does not work.
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2010.pdf (Note: read past the title.)
However, the US is an unusual place, so we should certainly not extrapolate that the same is true in Hong Kong or anywhere else (besides Canada).
At that level "cooking" is buy a bun (or two) from the bakery for 50 cents (or less if day old), a dollars worth of sliced meat from the deli, a slice or two of deli cheese for a quarter, grab a handful of condiment packets from the deli, and "cook" that into a sandwich lunch for about two bucks while laughing at the $7 premade subs from the deli or the fast food joint. And frankly the ingredients are probably higher quality than the fast food restaurant.
If you had read the parent post you'd have deduced I was responding to "even in the US you can eat quite well on $13 a day if you are frugal and know how to cook and budget".
However, access to cooking facilities can be a huge problem. A lot if the stuff in your blog can be done with a few pieces of cookware and a hot plate, but even that might be hard to get a hold of for some.
If you're talking strictly social security, even the government acknowledges it has a problem.
Here's a recent SCMP article where the welfare dept itself states that at least 40% of HK residents in poverty aren't covered by welfare.
http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1062025/700000-sl...
(mirror: http://goo.gl/GxyTw )
The good news is that the HK govt did, finally, just implement a standard poverty line (half median income). This is the first step and a long time in coming.
The government IS the people. It's not some alien body as some people (mostly in the US) seem to think.
The government is the people voting to elect some representatives, so they can get some things done for them ("the country") that need massive co-ordination and central planning.
Of course it can go astray (politicians taking advantage of their power for their own benefit and such), but it's not like there such thing as "perfection" anywhere in life, be it private or public.
Moreover, a hungry homeless person is a security risk. How many iPhones, GPS's, laptops, etc. are stolen in a smash-and-grab incidents? How many people get hurt? No, not by your friendly neighborhood homeless lady, but by a person who feels they have no other choice but to steal or a person who is hooked on an addictive substance and can't stop?
Poverty also does not take a lot of people. A few percent here and there will cause enough headaches to become noticeable.
And poverty is chronic in society. It's not like if you took all the homeless, poor, and hungry and shipped them off to some unknown land you'd rid of the problem. No, instead more people would be pushed into the margins, becoming poor. You have to treat the cause.
Therefore, if poverty is inherent in certain societal setups, if it is everyone's problem (i.e.: everyone pays the cost) and it takes only a small percentage of people being poor to become a big problem, it is in the interest of everyone to change the societal setup so that poverty is minimized. Your original point was that it's not the government's job to do this. I argue that it is. The government (by the people and for the people) would not be doing it's job if it wasn't taking care of me or the person next to me.
As an aside, some might argue that private charities work much more efficiently than governments when it comes to homelessness/poverty/hunger. Personally, I believe a balanced approach works best. Big slow moving government projects with lots of oversight and restrictions coupled with flexible and quick-acting private charities are much more effective than either of the two.
That's what I don't get about allegedly intellectual, allegedly fiscally conservative people who are anti-welfare. They think that it's about not "giving a free ride" to people who "don't deserve" it. They are neither intellectual nor fiscally savvy enough to understand that there is always a cost, and to help and house people with welfare -- even people who will never "contribute" -- will cost far less in the long run than the ripple effect from feeling righteous.
Note: I've only visited SG so this is 2nd hand info through my friends in SG.
Public housing on the other hand is heavily subsidised and somewhat controlled for PRs and citizens. FYI Singapore was a giant slum up until the government formed the HDB board in the 1960s. The CPF (Singapore's retirement fund) can be used as a deposit against your apartment which nowadays start at SGD 300,000 if you go far from the city. As you can guess, this results in many people having a lot of cash tied up in non-liquid assets when they retire that leads to a host of other issues.
I moved to Singapore 3 years ago from Australia and love the place and prefer life here to Hong Kong any day.
1,000,000 SGD is about 800,000 USD.
So, that's even better than the "common" (not avg) monthly wage in many places in Europe. Indeed, cost of living in Singapore must be over the roof…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_in_Hong_Kong#Housing_st...
I think the reason is that HK does have bigger area than SG but actually far less land is being used in HK (many hills), so practically speaking, the density is higher in HK :)
Public owned housing is the answer.
Eliminating artificial limitations on new development is the answer.
You're aware that the US has been doing this since the 1950s, right? And it hasn't worked as well for us?
Government intervention caused this. The government strictly controls which land can be built on, and restricts supply so much that this is what is left. If government stopped restricting which land developers could buy, build on, and sell as housing (which is a bad idea for another reasons, but not libertarian ones) then this problem would go away.
In the USA of all the friends that I had I was the only one to go to college. We were all in the same boat but I chose to study and do my homework and they did not.
Then there were lots of other students that not only would they not care about their studies but they actually made it worse for the rest of us in a daily basis. They got into gangs, smoke pot, bullied other students, where disruptive during class.
You know what, fuck them. They chose to waste their youth, they chose to do nothing with their lives so I don't give a fuck about them being poor. I was there, in the trenches with them and I can tell you that nobody forced them to waste their lives. They did it of their own will.
I don't think it's a good idea, Libertarians do.
Wealth distribution on this planet is fucking terrible.
Occasionally people do leave, whether for tax reasons or other reasons, but on the whole even the wealthy agree that the quality of life you get from living here is worth the expense paid in taxes, compared to moving somewhere that's more unequal and more violent. If anything I would guess there is a net influx of well-off people, and there would be more of one if immigration rules were loosened, to make it easier for wealthy people to move here from outside Europe.
For Denmark, about another 7 years. Why do you think the government is acting the way it does? (For those not familiar with the situation, pursuing a reform strategy in straight opposition of explicit pre-election promises). By then, the baby-boomers will have retired and the smallest generation in modern history is left to pay for everything.
As for crime, there is no evidence that low inequality causes low crime rates, or the opposite. Significantly more inequal Switzerland and Singapore has lower homicide rates.
This study disagrees: http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s...
Imagine, if you were a multi-millionaire, would you go to a job you hated for 60 hours a week?
Hong Kong and Singapore thrive because they are low tax, low regulation havens for the rich. Start enacting 'eat the rich' policies and the rich will go elsewhere.
It certainly can have adverse affects on investment payoffs that distort market logic; if you could figure out a way to progressively tax consumer consumption instead of income you could get around that.
Singapore, being a rich island nation, works the same. If they started taxing the shit out of their rich it would certainly result in many of those people leaving the country and many, many more not setting up shop their in the first place.
Does letting people do what they want include building without permits (esp. on allotments not designated for housing)? It doesn't work this way, governments already exercise strong control over the housing market due to laws and regulations.
I don't live in HK, but where I live, the large property funds (whose demand has nothing to do with housing) have a dramatic effect on prices - they cause an artificial shortage by purchasing everything on the market, thereby increasing the value of their own portfolio (and their rents). So just "letting people do what they want" isn't going to help the housing situation, it just increases the GDP. The government should use the increased taxes (if any - too many loopholes) to compensate the negative effects.
It sucks that so many are left with no choice in the matter though.
Even things like having two other people in the place was uncomfortable. There was space for a full bed and a small desk and nothing more. There was no usable kitchen. It seems like something that can be dealt with, but doing it really, really sucks.
That's not a great way to live.
" Single: 14’4” x 7’ ; Double: 14’8” x 14’4” ; Triple: 15'3" x 15'5"'' "
So the single room comes in at about ~100 sq. feet, and the double ~210 sq. feet.
Some of our facilities, like kitchens, bathrooms and showers, were communal however (I can't tell if this is the case in these apartments, but I can't see any bathrooms). Another big difference is that for nearly all college students, the dorm is not really their only home; everyone I know had a significant amount of stuff stored in their parent's house. I believe we were also provided a communal winter storage area for things like bikes, boxes of summer clothes, etc.
Obviously it's different to choose this lifestyle vs being forced into it due to poverty.
That said, there are a couple problems with a tiny living arrangement (as I can explain, having lived in New York for 7 years). First, very small spaces are harder to keep clean. While a 1000 SF house is easier to clean than 2000 SF, 1000 is probably easier than 500 SF (with a family of 4). Second, most people are social creatures and like the idea of being able to host larger parties (15-20 people, comfortably) in their house. If you prefer the outdoors over an active social life (like him, and to a lesser extent, like me) then this is a worthy sacrifice, but most people would dislike what a 100 SF house does to their social life. (New York is a strange exception; almost no one hosts in NYC.)
I’m now moving into a 17sqft mini apartment (just for four months), one metro station from the center of Hamburg (20 min to my very central workplace, including a ten minute bus ride to the next metro station plus walking and waiting times). I will pay 270 euro/month for it, including heat and electricity.
You can get more spacious apartments in similar places in Hamburg for about 500 Euro/month. If you share an apartment with roommates you might even pay less than 400 Euro.
Is Paris really so much more expensive, even well outside the city? I mean, Hamburg (and Munich and now also Berlin) are already making headlines for their crazy expensive rents.
It’s a mini apartment with huge quotation marks around it. One 9 square meter living room (with cupboard, sofa, table), one 8 square meter bedroom, including a shower. Toilet and tiny kitchen niche in the tiny, 1 meter wide hall not included (for whatever reason) in the 17 square meters.
I still think the 270 Euro/month are pretty expensive for what it is, but luckily I only have to live there for four months (and in the summer, so I’m not going to be in there all the time and will rather try to enjoy the city).
A student residence house (of course, subsidies, etc) could be had for around 250E, or even around 150E for the smallest rooms (around the 10m2 mark)
Of course, not Paris.
For those who don't want to click through, the site first present you with a fake Firefox popup, with the only a close button. Each time you close one of them, new ones will appear in greater numbers. Do this three times, and your screen will be filled with popup and a message that translate roughly to:
> Ignoring the housing problem will only make it worse, help us change the status quo!
> Our city may be beautiful on the surface, but underneath all that 10 000 hardworking low income workers are unable to share the fruit of our success. Families are forced to live in apartments with an average area of 40 square feet. They need your help to improve their lives; forward this email, help promote social justice!
"Cells within the Cell Housing Unit have one or two bunks and lockers for personal items. Generally, inmates who require a higher level of supervision are housed in this type of cell. Cells range in size from 7 feet wide to 10 feet 8 inches or 14 feet long. "
In 2011, Florida had just over 100,000 people in prison (that does not include jails or Federal prisons).
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.404783143152.173014...
http://www.chinasmack.com/2010/pictures/mongolian-homeless-l...
I think, it cannot get worse than that.
I ask as I generally love the idea of sky-rise buildings and high density housing. To me, Hong Kong feels almost utopian - like some sort of architects' playground. Stick thin apartments rising up through hillsides. Super dense housing, but the ability to travel 30 minutes and be in remarkable countryside. It really is remarkable.
I'd love to think this is the way forward, and regardless of opinion it seems the way the world is moving. People are migrating to mega cities, the world is urbanising. I guess the efficiencies you gain living this way are part of a real draw there. You don't need a car. Mass transport is cheap and efficient.
Which makes me wonder how Hong Kong's housing situation can be so dire. Even for the well off, the costs are prohibitive, and I dread to think how the poor manage.
Fucking terrible idea. I almost certainly know more about mental illness than you do. What makes people crazy in urban areas is expensive real estate. It's not signing the ridiculous rent checks that does it-- that's just annoying. However, moving involuntarily-- especially when due to adverse economic circumstances-- has a huge detrimental effect on mental health, even inducing illnesses such as schizophrenia[0] which might otherwise be thought to be purely biological.
[0] Schizophrenia, like cancer and depression, probably isn't one disease. There are at least 5 different schizophrenias.
Next to genetics and drug abuse, the strongest predictor for mental illness is whether a person had to move involuntarily for economic reasons. Traditionally, this was a cause for the high rate of mental illness in urban areas. (However, the recent housing catastrophe was a mostly suburban phenomenon; we'll see in about 10 years if that results in suburban MI levels exceeding urban ones)
If you ban high-rises, real estate costs become extreme. Just look at what it costs to live in the Village if you don't believe me. Or look at San Francisco's problem. It's not nearly as dense as New York, but almost as expensive because of the NIMBY assholes.
Bad bad bad fucking idea.
The blue collar lunchroom. A direct descendant of the school lunchroom.
As for anecdotes, the last time I ate in a communal lunchroom was the last manual labor job I had around 1994 while in school, since then its all been eating at the desk, runnin errands, going out. My employers have all had empty lunchrooms as an anachronism, more a place to keep the coffee makers and fridges and junk food machines. Once in awhile you'll see like 4 people in a 300 person company in the lunchroom eating together, or they have birthday parties/meetings in the "lunch"room.
A friend of mine purchased a duplex house so she could live downstairs and rent out the upper floor by individual rooms. The only way she found that it worked was to have new tenants vetted by the existing ones. The 4 rooms were rented individually with shared kitchen and bathroom, but by letting the tenants have a say in who they shared the space with, turnover was very low and people tended to get along better.
Here's a few in the 5-6 sq meter range
http://www.chintai.net/detail/bk_C01004728000466001/
http://www.chintai.net/detail/bk_C01004509001707001/
http://www.chintai.net/detail/bk_C01003440000826001/
A bigger list shows a lot more in the 10-12 sq meter sizes
http://www.chintai.net/tokyo/search/ensen/List.do?e=101001...
10-12 seems small in my experience but I have many friends in the 14-16 range
* http://goo.gl/zhqd3 (translated blog post) or
* http://www.bddpunlimited.com/node/2435 (scroll to "toutes les créations" for a slideshow, js + flash needed)
http://www.sydsvenskan.se/lund/husvilla-lth-studenter-tvinga...
I stayed in an apartment I rented from AirBnB which was awesome (for 2 people). I noticed other families in the same building where staying in the same sized places but had parents, adult children, and grandchildren living in bunk-beds.
This was in "Central", which struck me as a poor place for a family (apartments of this size ~350sqft were being listed for close to $1 million usd ($7.5~$8 million HK) but than if you had some sort of government price control when the building was built than it made more sense.
Coincidentally, I'm in HK on holiday going back to Beijing tomorrow. I'm suffocating in this small hotel room....my wife did a lot of shopping, though.
Not that China isn't chock full of disparities between better and worse off people despite the putative ideals of the communist state, but Hong Kong isn't a good example of such.
Most people actually would rather stay in HK to take advantage of the better education and healthcare system for their children than moving to China for a __slightly__ more affordable place. HK is also a much safer city to live in. The food is generally safe and the police is fair and professional.
Commuting between HK and China is also a big problem. Most jobs in HK are in the urban areas in HK, commuting from Shenzhen or elsewhere to those areas daily can take a huge chunk of money out of their wages, let alone the 3-4 hours they have to spend commuting.
Mostly younger people though.
The night buses from wanchai are full of HKers heading home to SZ.
Many of these people are trying to make a better life for themselves and especially their children. To get there, they are dealing with horrible living conditions. I salute them for that. My grandfather did something similar coming to America from Italy and his whole family is eternally grateful. Future generations of HKers are going to feel the same way.
[1]: http://www.gov.hk/en/about/abouthk/factsheets/docs/populatio...
Mouth-breathing idiots see expensive real estate and think it's a good thing. They clap their fat, ugly hands together. "People really want to live here!"
Smart people realize that expensive real estate is a sign of something that's gone seriously wrong, since high prices have more to do with supply problems (inelasticity) than demand. Regulatory corruption, deficient transportation, and damaged environments are usually behind expensive real estate. It's not something to be celebrated. It's a disease.
I for one love having my own washroom and bedroom where I can rest, relax and find silence.
Do you think a family of 4 would find comfort in an apartment?
I'm fairly sure if money were no object and transportation was near instant, myself and most people I know would choose the ranch and 20 acres.
With a ranch and lots of land, you can grow your own food, raise your own animals and not be tied down to requiring (as much) other people. You don't have to deal with traffic (foot or road), generally anyway, and your neighbors are probably pretty friendly - probably because they don't have to deal with masses of people on a daily basis and aren't stressed out / overly stimulated.
You get the night air, the country views and peace and quiet. That goes a long ways for some people. That is something you don't get in a urban setting.
Country views, not so much, but I live in a city on Massachusetts's South Shore and I get fantastic night air and the place is quiet as a grave after about 9PM.
Three bedrooms, living area, kitchen, full bathroom with possibly a half bath if it's a larger place.
Why couldn't a family of 4 be comfortable?
Most families of 4 are living in a 1br if they're lucky. Plenty of families of 10 doing 2brs etc.
Bay Area is seriously a bad choice if you're not in IT or making at least 6 figures combined yearly.
I know folks that make 6 figures yearly and still cannot convince themselves to pay $4000-$5000/month for a 2 bedroom.
I'm fairly sure if money were no object and transportation was near instant,
It's 2013 ... why can't we have that ? Surely the technology for this exists. I've always had this dream of "turbolifts" from startrek, the ground-based version. They're basically single-wagon trains that can go horizontally and vertically so they function as elevators. So you get in at the end of the hallway (or even the front door of your room) and you step out at work, or in a public station, or ... The big difference is, of course, that it works like a car. You get in whereever and you get out at home, or vice versa. No trains, no swapping cars, no ... Make it cheap by mass producing small cars.Why can't we build something like that ?
Heh, I've even programmed algorithms for routing these things. There are lots of problems of course, the cars need to be extremely reliable, or you need an extremely flexible mechanical design so you can pick broken ones up from rails. But a comfortable, large, elevator takes up much less space than a car, but of course needs much more infrastructure ... Oh well, dreams ...
No. You, maybe, but not me, and certainly not everyone.
And that's not even fully addressing the unstated assumption that everything you 'need' would even fit in an apartment, let alone a micro apartment.
Getting rid of things isn't always a good thing to do. Having the ability to be fully packed and ready to move in an hour is a tactic, not a life philosophy.
Not the same thing, which is my point.
It really seems to be age related. When you're younger, you tend to have nothing, so embracing minimalism seems like a good way to go. As we get older and achieve some level of success, a better quality of life tends to follow, and with it more material possessions.
Later, perhaps when we become aware of the number, and perhaps the burden (maintenance, storage space, etc) of all those things, minimalism again starts to look good.
Right now I'm waiting for the kids to grow up and leave so I can talk the wife into us living on a boat :-)
Why do you need to eat three square meals a day?
Why do you need a $1000+ PC?
Why do you need $50+ jeans?
Why do you need....
– no kitchen, I have to eat out every day, which makes me fat
- no sofa or decent desk – I have to lie on my bed all the time, bad for my back
– no space for guests – can only hang out in restaurants and bars, which makes relationships a bit more distant
All this has an effect on society and culture over here, and it's pretty bad.
Actually I'd rather have 20 acres, or 100, but within the constraints we set, this is what we could (barely) afford. I like my own space and I consider it one of the things I "need." In fact, it's way up there in terms of priority. Your "needs" may be different. I've lived in large, medium, and small cities and I simply prefer to live in a low-density area.
Now, about the house itself, it's too big: I'd prefer something about 1/3 the size. Unfortunately, it's impossible to find a small house on a large acreage unless you want to commute over an hour to work and no bank will lend the money to build one.