Everyone should get the opportunity to program, but school is a waste of time
philliphaydon.com
philliphaydon.com
I also struggled in high school because I couldn't choose my own curriculum (as do a lot of people), but what school reinforced in me is the concept that not everything in life is easy - successful people can turn a challenge into something constructive. I could go on about all the benefits of a standardized, well-rounded education, but every time one of these articles pops up a lot of people do that for me :)
I could just as easily go on about the detrimental effect of standardized education. The executive summary is this: societies do not advance when everyone thinks the same way as everyone else.
It's popular to dump on education but for anyone to conclude that the entire system is unusable and needs to be destroyed is silly. For some people, like myself, I fit right into the education system as it exists.
The holy grail of education is a system that is agile enough to cater to the myriad learning styles and goals of students. This isn't a novel idea but obviously the challenge is in implementation.
Everyone's entitled to their two minute hate but it'd be a much more interesting article if he posed some solutions. It would also show he's more than an armchair quarterback with an axe to grind against an old english teacher.
While I totally agree that the schooling system is outdated and primarily a way to socialize children, what programmers tend to forget is that we have a very special profession that has both low barriers of entry and high pay. Literally anyone who has access to a computer can learn to program. This is not the case in most professions! While aspiring programmers can tinker around with Linux in their spare time, an aspiring doctor can't tinker with a cadaver without being in school. As programmers we are extremely lucky that all the tools we could ever need are free and on the web.
I used to go to school with a guy who dropped out of school at 15, having failed year 11, get a job working outside, did a part-time course, ended up in an apprenticeship, worked a few years, started his own business, sold it, he's 28 now and owns his own house without a mortgage...
Put him in front of a computer and the most he can do is use facebook and play video games.
That's a single case, but there's millions of people just like him, and there's millions of people who are missing out on having a good life because we told them they aren't intelligent enough to go to university simply because they weren't good at one thing at school.
People who are successful despite being uneducated are outliers. Stories like OP (and Bill Gates and countless others) are stories. Anecdotes. Single data points that are meaningless without context. Deciding to forego an education based on such stories is a risky game.
Sorry to nitpick, but how can life not evolve around General Knowledge which, ostensibly, includes all knowledge. Agree with the sentiment, disagree with the argument.
"The greatest disservice to a cause is to defend it with poor arguments." -- Some Famous Guy Dead Guy Who Couldn't Program
Take English for example: In school we used to analyze poems from World War 1 / 2, and we had to explain why the poet used this word, that sentence, this style, etc.
The truth is, there's no English Answer. The person wrote what he felt, what he smelt, saw, heard, etc. He felt that those words and sentences best described the what he wanted to say.
Yet we butcher these poems on speculation and assumptions. We don't learn anything from this in my opinion. The entire process of analyzing books/poems/movies in English class is silly.
With math we are forced to learn how to measure the volume of a triangle... Sure there may be some time in life where you might put this to use, but MOST people would never need to know this type of math, we need to instill general maths but we need to de-emphasize math and allow kids to focus on things they are interested in and allow them to be creative and learn to their full potential, if that means they want to go learn advanced math! By all means let them!
I have conversations with people (adults) who clearly never had to do these things (or any other similar study of the written word). It's like having a conversation with a child; they miss puns, subtext, irony, sarcasm, struggle to consider more than one conflicting opinion at a time, struggle to interpret beyond the purely literal and struggle to communicate their own thoughts to others. An inability to communicate beyond such a low level is crippling.
One person explained that he did not want to be misunderstood and thus will always speak literally. (He, unfortunately, seemed to expect other people do this too. Which didnt happen all that often. Ergo misunderstandings)
The answer is obvious -- most of those who excel, who create breakthroughs, do it by specializing. This is not argue against general knowledge, only to say that specialization is an element of nearly every success story and scientific breakthrough.
There's even a new psychological theory about specializing, that celebrates focusing on a few things, or one -- it's called "Grit":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grit_(personality_trait)
"Grit in psychology is a positive, non-cognitive trait, based on an individual’s passion for a particular long-term goal or endstate coupled with a powerful motivation to achieve their respective objective."
An example would be Albert Einstein working alone for years on his relativity theory, to the exclusion of any other activities.
But, just to prove how consistent psychologists are, the exact same behavior can get you an Asperger's diagnosis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome
"... an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) that is characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction, alongside restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests."
These two theories describe the exact same behavior -- intense focus and specialization, but come to opposite conclusions -- it's good. No, wait, it's bad.
Given that there are two opposing but equally plausible psychological theories about this kind of personal focus, guess which historical figure is now diagnosed with Asperger's? Albert Einstein. Along with Isaac Newton, Thomas Jefferson, and Bill Gates.
More here: http://arachnoid.com/building_science
I disagree. One of them is about long-term passion for a goal. One of them is about social inability.
It's quite possible to have both at the same time. It's quite possible to have just one. It's quite possible to have neither. They are not the same thing.
You didn't disagree. Your reply distinguishes the behaviors based on whose explanation you're listening to, not the behavior itself.
> One of them is about long-term passion for a goal.
> One of them is about social inability.
Yes -- that's the why, not the what. The behavior is the same, but the explanation is different, and it differs based on who is talking.
Two groups of psychologists have identified the same behavior. One of them celebrates it, says it's how we accomplish great things. The other condemns it, says it's a mental illness. And both of them identify the same people -- Albert Einstein, Isaac Newton, Thomas Jefferson, and Bill Gates, among others -- as being terrific examples of grit, or mentally ill, based on the same behavior.
In your original post, I take issue with this in particular: "These two theories describe the exact same behavior -- intense focus and specialization". I disagree. I believe only ONE of them describes intense focus - grit. The other, Asperger's, describes social inability.
If they are the same thing, how is it possible that some people who are passionate about a long-term goal are socially adept and gregarious, and some people with Aspergers have no passion for any long-term goals?
Grit behaviour - passion for long term goal. Says nothing about social ability. It's very possible to have fantastic passion for a long term goal and be socially adept.
Asperger's behaviour - social inability. Says nothing about passion for long term goals. It's very possible to be Aspergic and have no passion for long term goals.
These are two different behaviours. You say they are the same behaviour - I completely disagree.
I didn't say they were the same, I said they were different. Only the behavior is the same. For a given behavior -- intense focus on a few activities or one activity -- the Grit contingent will celebrate it, and the Asperger contingent will issue a mental illness diagnosis.
> Asperger's behaviour - social inability. Says nothing about passion for long term goals.
First, Aspies achieve more than average people because their focus produces long-term results as an effect of their focus. You're confusing causes and effects.
Being a world-class concert pianist or violinist is not a symptom of ASperger's, it's an effect, an outcome, that springs from intense focus, and intense focus is a symptom of Asperger's.
Second, are you really not getting this? Psychology is driven by opinion, not evidence. For a given behavior, you will get two (or more) assessments from different psychological camps. Albert Einstein, Isaac Newton, Thomas Jefferson, Bill Gates are (a) famous, creative people, and (b) Aspies, based on the same set of behaviors. All that's different is which mental health expert is speaking.
"Famous People with Aspergers Syndrome":
http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/article_2086.sh...
"Famous People with Aspergers Syndrome":
http://www.aspergerssyndromeparent.com/famous-people-with-as...
The Grit theory is an obvious acknowledgment that restricted interests sometimes produces amazing results, but the Asperger's people already knew that, while telling Aspies how mentally ill they are. It is all about how one chooses to interpret the same behavior.
> I believe only ONE of them describes intense focus - grit. The other, Asperger's, describes social inability.
You're mistaken:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome
Quote: "characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction, alongside restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests."
Note "restricted ... interests" in the above definition of Asperger's.
The Grit contingent emphasizes the achievement of long-term goals, the Asperger contingent emphasizes social ineptitude. Both are describing the same behavior in different ways.
It's not as though this is an original idea -- it's why Asperger's is being abandoned as a diagnosis (too many successful people are being stigmatized with a pointless mental illness diagnosis).
"A Powerful Identity, a Vanishing Diagnosis":
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/03/health/03asperger.html?pag...
Yes, I really am not getting this. Earlier I thought you were saying that the two were in fact the same thing, but now you seem to be saying that they are different and they happen to have similar symptoms; although, frankly, the difference between an Aspergic obsessed with something and a passionate non-Aspergic obsessed about something are like chalk and cheese; a few minutes spent with each talking about their interest makes the two unmistakable - if it's identical behaviour, how come I can tell the two apart? How come I can think of heaps of people with grit who are not Aspergic and would not be described as such by even the most diagnosis-happy psychiatrist?
I think what you're saying is that they are different, and that it's possible to sometimes mistake one for the other, and some psychiatrists make this mistake. Is that what you're saying?
A lecture is not the only way to educate people. Yes, lectures are boring, but discussions are not and in college and grad school I have been in discussions that went long past the scheduled end time for a class. There is no reason that could happen in high schools as well.
Yes, things are different below a certain age. Most people who hated school talk about how much they hated high school and perhaps middle school. There is a period of time where people start to want to think independently, but where our education system is based on teaching everyone to think the same things. Compliance and conformity are the goals in American schools; education is secondary, mostly a side-effect of teaching compliance.
If we must have a place to park children if we want their parents to work why can't it be like Summerhill, and not somewhere children are made to sit still, be quiet, do as you're told, stop doing it when I say stop? [ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerhill_School ]
If school is about education why does it start two to four hours too early for adolescents to learn at their best and why do they get homework in all subjects when the only subjects that show positive effects from homework wre math and cognate subjects?
That is not entirely a thing of the past. My zoned high school in New York City only graduated about a third of its incoming students when I was a teenager (I was fortunate enough to go to a more well-funded school). What do you think those high school drop-outs were doing? Some were in gangs, others were out working. There are still families that are so poor that they start pressuring children to work as soon as the law allows it.
"Without school how do those kids get an education?"
A large number of those drop-outs are only barely literate, and only barely able to do basic arithmetic. The question is not, "How can they be educated without school?" but rather, "How can they be educated?" We still struggle with that issue.
"basic numeracy and literacy skills a child needs to function in society."
As it turns out, the minimum literacy skills needed to function in society are taught somewhere between 2nd and 4th grade. You do not really need to be able to read at a more advanced level for many lines of work, where your vocation training is entirely hands-on and where you have calculators or computers to do your arithmetic and logic. My mother is a blue-collar worker, and some of her coworkers are only barely literate enough to fill out incident reports (she often has to help them). You do not even need to be literate to vote in a national election.
The problem with being uneducated is not that you cannot live -- people with no income can still survive in our society. The problem is that an uneducated person is at a great disadvantage in our society, being cut off from opportunities and being easily taken advantage of by educated people. Uneducated people are far more likely to waste money on the lottery. Uneducated people are far more likely to forfeit their right to remain silent if they are arrested. Uneducated people are far less likely to attain leadership positions or financial security.
Unfortunately, the public education system as it exists today utterly fails to give people the minimum education needed to avoid all of the above. I suspect that giving people the education needed to be leaders or compete effectively in our capitalist system (or, heaven forbid, to change that system) is not even a goal of the education system. Vocational training is not a goal either -- trade schools are popular for a reason. If you were to ask me, I would tell you that the goal of our education system is to produce compliant workers who accept their place in a rigid social hierarchy. It is not just the "bad students" who are punished in school; students who master the material of a course and then stop bothering to show up are equally punished, even when their teachers are fully aware that they are bored. Low grades -- in the D or even F range -- are given for failing to do homework, regardless of the education value of that homework. Punishments are doled out for insubordination, regardless of what it was that the student was doing (e.g. a student who was smoking pot in a bathroom will be punished the same as a student who cut class to go to the computer lab and learn how to program).
Really, this is a problem of values. We do not value education. The people in power, who received a quality education that focused on teaching them how to think, have little interest in ensuring that poor people learn anything other than compliance. If the goal were to ensure that people are learning to think, we would not be using structured tests where the precise subjects to be covered are known in advance to evaluate academic progress (nor would we be pressuring teachers to deliver high scores on those exams).
School time isn't wasted unless you think school is for educating children. They get all the education they need and there's childcare and socialisation in first and second place.
PS: I think the greatest hubris of youth is that there time is worth much, and they have any idea what they will be doing in 20 years.
Basic math (up to and including algebra and geometry) is used all the time in every day activities. You don't have to be a math whiz and remember every last formula... but remembering that it's possible to figure out the third side of a triangle when you have the other sides and the angle between them, or being able to figure out what the original price of an item was if it's $60 now and is marked down 20% from its original price.
Knowing history and social studies can help you understand the way the world works on a macro level, which is useful for figuring out if that new startup idea is going to be successful or just sit on the shelf with the rest of the bad ideas.
Real life does revolve around math, history, English, and science. Perhaps the author is smart enough that he picked this stuff up without doing any of the work, so he failed the classes but learned what he needed to anyway. But that doesn't mean you don't need to learn it.
Should we try to help people who don't do well in traditional school environments? Definitely. But that doesn't mean we throw out traditional schooling. There's a basic level of knowledge that everyone should have to be a productive member of society. And you have to test kids, otherwise you can't know if they're actually learning anything. But that doesn't mean we should be shaming kids who don't test well. We should be helping them learn, and changing how we test so that we are testing the knowledge rather than raw fact regurgitation.
Now, if you're talking college, I can agree a lot more. Taking literature in college when you're in a CS program is more than dumb, it's a huge waste of time and money. College should be about teaching you skills for a career. For STEM careers, that doesn't mean reading Shakespeare.... but it might mean statistics and probability. The time wasted on a shakespeare class could be better spent taking a class on compilers or assembly.
Some kids learn faster than others, we shouldn't hold some kids back simply because they are years younger than other kids. If a 7yo is racing through maths and enjoys it, put him with kids of his skill level, when you put a 7yo who is already years ahead in math, with kids his own age learning what he already knows, he messes around out of boredom.
Just because a few kids work well in a traditional environment doesn't mean we should hold those kids back, but we do. And likewise slower learning kids who could be exceptional at subjects are rushed through school and declared 'slow' or we blame the parents or homework etc for their lack of apparent intelligence.
Honestly, I think the main reason we aren't doing better educating our kids is because no one wants to pay for it. Education is expensive. Rigorous testing of methodologies and re-educating teachers is expensive. We pay our teachers a pittance... I don't know how anyone expects education to be great when we aren't trying to attract brilliant people with high salaries.
Traditional schooling is the cause of the problems people have in school. Keeping it, but making special exceptions for people who are bright but failing, is like having a tow truck drag your car to work in the morning because you did not want to take it to a mechanic.
In an American school, the goal is to have all the students think the same way. We have laws that reinforce that goal at all levels of government. All students learn basic algebra and basic trigonometry. Very few learn Euclidean geometry, and almost none learn non-Euclidean geometry. A math teacher is not in any way free to decide their curriculum; the curriculum is given to the teacher, who forces it upon the students. A standardized test is given to all students at the end of the year, and it always has the same format, same subjects, and similar questions.
That is not a system meant to educate people or to promote their ability to think; it is a system meant to train people to be like everyone else. It is not just that we settled on that because we lacked alternatives. We chose this approach because the people in power did not consider teaching the population how to think to be a priority. If they had considered it to be a priority, standardized testing would have been rejected early on, if it had even been thought of in the first place.
"you have to test kids, otherwise you can't know if they're actually learning anything"
Giving everyone the exact same test, or variants of the same test with all questions being asked in the same way, does nothing to test their academic progress. Anyone can be trained to take a test when the format, subject matter, questions, etc. are all known in advance.
If you want to test people in a meaningful way, you need to give them problems they never encountered before, in formats they never encountered before. Otherwise you are just as likely to identify well-educated students as well-trained students, and you will lack any way to measure the difference.
"Taking literature in college when you're in a CS program is more than dumb"
Only if you think the purpose of college is vocational training. The idea that people go to college to receive job training and job credentials has been extremely destructive to higher education. It is not just that humanities departments are being slashed; in the CS department at my alma mater, computability and algorithms were the only theoretical courses. Compilers had been offered a few years before I arrived, complexity theory was not taught at all, and programming languages was just about different language features without any discussion of type theory. When I asked the department chair why the curriculum was so easy, the answer was that only a handful of CS students actually enjoyed learning CS, and that the department could not afford to have the other students leave as a result of rigorous standards. Those "other students" were only there for job credentials.
If you want vocation training, get a two year associates degree. That will save you time and money, and you will not be part of the wave of destruction that is ruining higher education.