Hacker News Reader

Comment by manicdee | Hacker News Reader

Not punish the kid defending himself with a chair?

Not punish the kid hitting back at someone who was bullying him?

Not punish the kid who beat up the bully?

It actually helps to have some idea of what's going on in the school yard, ask witnesses what was going on, and IF KIDS COMPLAIN ABOUT BULLYING DON'T TELL THEM TO GET OVER IT. "You're not making an effort to fit in" is blaming the victim. I'm not making the fucking effort to fit in because the other kids treat me like dirt. Why should I bother to try fitting in?

But yes, the adults could have looked at the situation and realised that the bully was getting their just deserts. Punishing the victim who has been pushed past the end of their tether is not helping anyone.

View on HN

Evidence. Bullies are very careful to cover their tracks, they know the limits of the system, verbal bullying is usually ignored as is physical intimidation. And then it's one kids word against the others + one kid holding a chair.

With the above, a reasonable adult, considering evidence, has no choice but to "arrest" the kid with the chair, since the other has done no wrong other than verbal + possible pushing.

The system needs fixing by making what the bully did prior to the event actionable by the adults so it wouldn't escalate to where it did. Cameras would help.

But then what do we do with the bully? Move him to another school and let the cycle repeat?

The system needs fixing by making what the bully did prior to the event actionable by the adults so it wouldn't escalate to where it did. Cameras would help.

At a school, the adults are the system, so I think my point still stands.

I've long wondered what would have fixed this... in the end the only solution I could come up with would be to segregate the consummate bullies. I'm sure smarter people could think of more adroit solutions.

Expel the bullies, force them out of the system. The government has an obligation to educate children, it does not have an obligation to educate bullies. If your child is a bully then you, as a parent, need to fix that if you want them to be able to be educated.

That doesn't seem fair either to me. I mean, perhaps I am a sap, but I feel sorry for bullies as well. Usually what drives them is deep seated emotional problems of their own; and by pushing them out of the system all you do is create adult bullies, and probably offenders.

Bullies are in need of solutions too, but that is no excuse to let their problems spread out and have a huge impact on other kids and on society. The same thing is true of criminals. Most criminals (even up to rape and murder) don't start out as ordinary, well adjusted folks who one day wake up and go "huh, I'm bored, guess I'll go be bad", they lead troubled lives. They have been wronged by others and by society and sometimes they express that through theft, self-medication via drug use, violence, molestation, rape, murder, etc.

We have to triage the problem. First, prevent harm from occurring to others. Second, attempt rehabilitation.

Remember that bullies also create problems in other kids which can force them to act out. Force them to drop out and get into drug use. Force them to become bullies themselves, or thieves, etc.

Ok, as a teacher you come into the classroom and the normally shy kid with glasses is standing there angrily over the popular, loud, boisterous kid who looks shocked. Do you really need to call NCIS? I don't think its unreasonable to suggest you know exactly whats going on here.

(hint: the shy kid probably did not suddenly decide right this moment to pop up and decide to fight for alpha status)

Yes, to you it is obvious, but not to the teacher. The teacher was her/himself the popular kid in school and cannot comprehend what shy even means. She/he doesn't see a bully and a kid who couldn't take it anymore, she/he sees a respectable well-adjusted upstanding kid well on her/his way to being a respectable well-adjusted successful adult and a psycho holding a chair.

That doesn't make sense. I was the kid with the chair; top of the class, got on really well with most of the teachers, mum was a school governor, history of being bullied...

The teacher(s) new exactly what had happened. The administration didn't, though, and it was them that threatened to suspend me.

They did account for the circumstances; they brought in the bullies parents and all of us sat around a table to discuss it. But he squirmed out of it ("so sorry! Only a bit of fun", etc.).

The problem is; it's only when the bullied person does something extreme that the bully gets into that situation. And it didn't happen often, so this particular individual had lots of "last warnings" and final promises to be nicer.

But no one followed up and punished him properly the next time.

Teachers are there to educate, they aren't equipped properly to deal with a point of justice/behaviour.

> The teacher(s) new exactly what had happened. The administration didn't, though, and it was them that threatened to suspend me.

That looks like it is a significant part of the problem: the adults most likely to exercise good judgement on these matters (teachers) don't have the power to do so.

I really like the english "he had seen it coming". Sometimes it would be best not punishing people that just fought back (even if they fought back with violence against non violent bullying).

Problem is though who has the right to decide if it was just or not. This sadly always leads to unjust sentences.

Here's an idea- start holding adults to the exact same standards we hold kids, and then watch how fast policies change:

Co-worker makes racist remarks towards you: "sticks and stones" speech

Co-worker sexually harasses you: "sticks and stones" speech

Co-worker physically assaults you: "sticks and stones" speech, with added punishment if the victim defends himself

And in each case, tell the adult victim how they should be more empathetic to the bully's lot in life.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com