This has to be up there with people claiming they don't like Lua because array indexing starts at 1 instead of 0. Of all the weaknesses of Python, focusing on something so superficial just seems lazy.
Perhaps in the future just say that you're experienced and comfortable with Ruby and have no reason to investigate Python at the moment. :)
You can reasonably argue that a project team should already have and enforce a coding style guide, so specifying a "tab" isn't a big deal. But what if you're part of two separate projects which different coding standards? Do you use Editor A for Project A, and Editor B for Project B? Or do you maintain separate configuration profiles, one for each project? Granted, this also isn't a big deal: Just "git checkout ProjectA" in the directory where you keep your preferences before you start coding. But it is an extra step in your workflow.
You can use the "-t" or "-tt" flags to spit warnings or errors if someone mixes tabs and spaces, so any conscientious group can easily catch whitespace incompatibility problems. But Python's whitespace usage has organizational consequences, and it can affect a developer's choice of tools and/or workflow. For some people, this is not a superficial impediment.
PEP 8 has been around for over a decade, so there's no excuse for not following its recommendations.
Coding standards are the most time-wasting form of bicycle shedding. Choose one and stick with it. gofmt is fantastic, and so is PEP8.
Indexing starting at 1 is not only irritating, it's mathematically difficult. Certain concepts actually can't be described (as easily) with array indices that start at 1. It's not a trivial argument.
Similar with white space; having to write code which obeys white space and tab rules is not the way some people like to think. As much as I love Python (and I do), I find it more restrictive and less fun than Ruby. It's not just superficial, it changes the way you think, and what you think about. Of course Python has its advantages, lots of them. But it also has its own style, which may not be everyone's song and dance.
I do program in both Python and Ruby frequently, and I have to say that it has nothing to do with experience or comfort, it's truly a judgement, and a valid one at that. Nice try :)
Sure, there are certain edge cases when I wish I could represent something all in one line, or something similar, but they are so few and far between that I really cant see it as a major argument against not wanting to use python.
I felt the same way about whitespace at one time, but then I got used to it, and wonder why I ever felt so strongly one way or the other. The cases when my indentation isnt exactly like python in other languages is very rare.
If you find yourself using frequent cases of non-pythonic indentation in other languages, you may be writing some very unfriendly/unreadable code in a lot of instances.
It may make sense to you, but I wouldnt want to work on the same team.
Python people constantly advocating white space indentation as some kind panacea to all programming problems programmers have ever faced is irritating to those people who know it is not and can never be.
Also look at what is happening in this thread. This thread is about Ruby, every time some thread on Ruby or Perl is started- You see Python trolls descending all over the thread to push their shiny tool down others throat. I mean this is happening for years now, may be even decades. There is also this quote...
"And what defines a 'python activist' anyway? Blowing up Perl installations worldwide?" - Ivan Van Laningham
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-announce-list/2005-J...
That is how notoriously Python people troll on other languages.
Trolling on other languages is a irritating thing, sooner or later people figure you have nothing to offer. Instead of doing this and trolling on other languages, may be the Python community should build about something awesome and let people decide if they should use on its merits.
Also, stop putting your words into other people's mouth. Who here is advocating Python indentation as a cure-all? Point is, you can talk about Ruby all you want, but when you diss on Python indentation, you'd better back up your opinions with facts instead of substituting your opinion as facts.
The only valid reason to diss on Python indentation is if you find yourself constantly writing really long functions in multiple nested blocks. You'll have trouble seeing which block you are closing the further down you go.
Now we are done defending, I still haven't seen a valid argument against Python whitespace, or people who have the guts to say they just don't like it.
Why did the OP of this thread even question the relevance of Ruby as compared to "Python". And why is it that only Python people feel a need to do that in every thread on other languages? Its always the Python guys who do this, I never see any Java, C, C++ or Perl guys do this.
This has become very common.
The way I see and this very theme, is pretty re current in every language thread.
>>I still haven't seen a valid argument against Python whitespace
I still haven't seen a valid argument on why Python people need to descend on every language thread and start this discussion. Even if the topic has nothing even remotely to do with Python.
>>or people who have the guts to say they just don't like it.
Or people who have the guts to see an opportunity on every language thread, then descend and do marketing-through-trolling.
The sole reason I'm here is to find out what's new and fun in Ruby. The reason I'm replying is because I see people spreading FUD again about Python's whitespace rules without anything to back it up.
I've seen tons of derogatory names Java, C, C++ people call Pythonistas, Rubyists and Perlists scripting kiddies and such. I've seen some pretty prominent Perl hackers (Sam Tregar and others) complaining about Python's range start at 0 and such.
Stop living in a paranoia bubble and think everyone is against you.
No one is against anyone. Python is great. Some people dislike whitespace restrictions. Who cares? Just because they dislike a characteristic of your preferred language does not mean they think it's lesser or are trying to demean or belittle it in any way. Stop arguing about it already.
As you said, "Stop living in a paranoia bubble and think everyone is against you."
(And HN needs something to stop this happening.)