Comment by CyrusL | Hacker News Reader

Comment by CyrusL | Hacker News Reader

One of the reasons Starcraft is interesting as an e-sport is because bugs like this have kept the game in racial balance for over a decade.

For example, the game was not designed to give mutalisks the ability to stack on top of each other. However, at some point in the early 2000s, it was discovered that when 11 mutalisks were grouped with 1 overlord, the mutas tended to stack: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfqQYJzq7o0 . This meant that an attacking player could deal the damage of 11 units while only exposing the surface area of 1 of them. Using this technique, a pro gamer named July won the 3 OSL tournaments: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/July .

With respect to the path-finding behavior described in the article, there is a funny aspect the author doesn't mention: mining workers still collide with buildings while mining, just not other workers. This lead to a technique known as the manner pylon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmS2ghQyAYI . If a protoss player builds a pylon in their opponent's mineral line with great timing, they can trap their opponent's workers between the minerals and the pylon. This renders the workers useless until the pylon is killed.

In Starcraft-speak, "manner" means being respectful (such as saying "good game" when you lose). The manner pylon got it's name because it is so incredibly annoying to deal with, it will cause anyone to lose their manners.

For those of you who might be familiar with Starcraft, but not the competitive scene, you should know that pro players are executing these techniques at a rate of hundreds of APM (actions per minute): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4UTDudShDY

Is changing the behavior of a group of units because it happens to be grouped with a distant unit really a good thing for the game?

It makes for a good story, and it's great fun for the person who discovers it. Players like it, because it lets them beat new players even more easily. But players don't always know what's best for them.

This is why Starcraft 2 multiplayer is structured to force players to play on complicated, resource balanced Blizzard approved maps. Starcraft 1 allowed ranked games on any map, and players largely played simplified, resource-soaked maps. Or played nothing but Big Game Hunters and Lost Temple. This was what players thought they wanted, but it wasn't what was best for the game.

Your comment on starcraft maps is off.

Both SC2 and BW have two sets of maps, UMS maps with custom settings used for fun games and competitive maps made to be racially balanced and produce "good" games. In SC2 UMS maps are part of the arcade where as ladder games are played on tournament maps. The same is true for BW but blizzard didn't have an official ladder so 99% of the games on battle.net were UMS maps, but ICCUP ladder had the same competitive maps you see in SC2.

As far as the glitches are concerned, they were undoubtedly beneficial to BW, as the last balance patch was in 2001 when the game was in its infancy as far as strategy goes. For example TvZ could not be played in its current form without muta stacking and terran's still have more success despite it. 99% of players would never use these tricks of have them used against them, but it allowed for the game to advance strategically and added an additional element of skill.

BW?

Brood War

Broodwar, the expansion to the original starcraft.

Supreme commander 2 used flowfield for their pathfinding. Flowfield does an ok job, but it actively tries to group units together by giving them little pushes in the correct direction.

As a result, in competitive play, players would leave one or two units at home, when they advance they would select all their front line units and move forward, when they retreat they would select all their front line units plus the units at base, and flowfield would cause the front line retreat to exceed unit velocity!

I think you grossly overestimate Blizzard's grasp of balance when compared to the SC/SC2 communities' grasp of balance. Compare the solutions and balance opinions of Dustin "Rocks are Balanced" Browder to Sean "Day[9]" Plott, for example.

In the mutalisk stacking example, it ended up being a very good thing in terms of metagame balance. At the time, top Zerg players were having tremendous problems breaching Terran static defenses, and it proved to be relatively "fair" for them to have that option in the mid-game. Also worth noting is that just because it's simple doesn't make it easy; it still required good APM/Micro to manage and a solid understanding of the magic-boxing techniques.

Even now, in SC2, the idea that workers don't collide with each other when given a command to mine a remote mineral patch is necessary at high levels of play to use the drone drilling technique in order to avoid a pylon ramp-block, which is an extremely simple technique for the protoss to use, but disproportionately difficult situation for the Zerg to deal with. Even with the drone drilling technique, it's still relatively uphill and requires good micro. (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9CA9AahV1E )

As for the complicated "Blizzard Approved" maps, they're present in the ladders, but most have tweaks. Of particular note are the GSL (A/THE pro-league in south korea) maps that actually include a neutral supply depot at the bottom of the main ramp to prevent pylon ramp-blocks from being viable so as to prevent drone drilling from being necessary.

Similarly, KESPA (korean e-sports association) was one of the driving forces for map balance in brood war, and their version of the Lost Temple was considered very balanced for reasons much more strategically significant than "people like it".

There were all kinds of discoveries like that. I remember when the reaver drop was invented by someone out of MIT. Can't remember his handle but he was one of the top players pre-brood war.

Edit: Found him, Zileas aka Tom Cadwell. Brings back the memories.

Reaver drop was not invented by Zileas, he only popularized it.

This is true!

Do you happen to know who invented it? Was it someone else at MIT?

1_COOL_GUY was #1 on bnet for a long while using the reaver drop coupled with the map hack. Not sure if he invented this either, but this was before Zileas (a legit player) came along.

(Can't believe I remember these details.)

While this is a fairly good explanation of some interesting things about Starcraft, I think something truly interesting about mutalisk stacking in particular is its actual discovery date. It wasn't, in fact, discovered in the 'early 2000s', but rather in mid 2006, a good 7 years after the game was released.

Prior to this trick's discovery, players stacked mutalisks by right clicking the group onto a mineral patch or gas geyser, which causes them to clump up more than right-clicking onto the ground (July, who you mention, actually won at least the first 2 OSLs without the benefit of this trick). I would imagine that air units in Starcraft have a similar hack applied to their moving collision detection as the workers do with mining, as the exhibit a lot of the same behaviors (okay with being on top of each other while moving, spread out as soon as they stop moving).

> One of the reasons Starcraft is interesting as an e-sport is because bugs like this have kept the game in racial balance for over a decade.

It's worth pointing out that I've seen a similar argument made for Street Fighter 2: that a lack of rebalancing is what made it such a popular tournament play, or some such.

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