Python trademark at risk in Europe | Hacker News Reader

Python trademark at risk in Europe

pyfound.blogspot.ca

547 pointsarcatek163 comments

I (and probably several other) members of the board will be on this thread to answer any questions.

Van Lindberg Chairman, Python Software Foundation

Edit: I have been asked what sort of statements would be helpful. I can't tell you exactly what to say - it needs to be your statement, but we need to make it clear that when someone says "Python" in relation to software, or a "Python server," or with "Python experience," they are referring to Python-the-language.

We also want people to testify to their understanding that Python is distributed by the Python Software Foundation.

These are not exactly the same, but this gives a flavor of some of the things that can be helpful:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zxn212k5r8mg1k7/WitnessStatement.p...

In case anyone wants to know, it is CTM Application No. 10848208 PYTHON & Device in the name of POBox Hosting

Edit 2: I have already received a book written in Spain, job postings about Python, and a number of statements of support. Thank you! Please, keep sending them. We need to make sure that it is clear that "Python" is Python across the entire EU.

What would the ramifications be if the PSF loses the rights to the name "Python" in Europe? Would it force the language itself to be rebranded for all European usage?

I can imagine that at that point the company owning the Python trademark would be able to go after other companies offering Python services for trademark infringement, and various other legal threats related to it...

This is a stupid question to ask. Naturally they will not loose their right to use the name.

There's no need to be hostile in your response to a legitimate question; even if the answer seems painfully obvious to yourself and others.

After all, we all learn by asking questions.

Well, the question itself is stupid not because something is obvious in the outcome, but because obviously nobody can predict the future. And using simple words is not hostile, at least using the term "stupid" in my previous comment had no hostility intended.

I excuse for any irritation it might have caused and hopefully I could remove now any of these.

Surely at least some part of their stack is built using Python, so couldn't you tell them that they may not use the software if they are going to proceed with this?

That's not how the open-source movement works. You can't start excluding people based on usage you don't like. If you do that, you're explicitly not following open-source ideals.

"Sue us and your license is revoked" is quite a reasonable provision, IMHO.

Edit: if you're going to down-vote, at least read my clarification below.

It's not at all - that means you're ceding many rights to the authors of the software. Suppose I want to use open source X from Company Y, and they had that provision. Then I find that Company Y is pirating my software, slandering, hacking our servers - if I sue them, I now lose my license?

Why would I build on something that lets the owner act against me with relative impunity (assuming the software is something critical)?

I considered that and I'll admit that I was being a bit lazy with my comment but I think it could be written in a reasonable way. Perhaps a license fee attached to any failed legal action. Or even limit to certain types of legal action.

We can't even be sure that Python-the-company is using Python-the software, so ...

Furthermore, I think the problem is not here, the PSF clearly made a mistake by not registering the name (it's not a matter of 'bad law'). If we apply your solution, then it would mean that a company which does not use Python can still ask to register a global trademark named on the term.

>the PSF clearly made a mistake by not registering the name (it's not a matter of 'bad law') //

You acquire some pretty reasonable rights in a trademark by virtue of use alone.

Apache license, mozilla license and GPL has provisions that terminates the licence upon the initiation of particular lawsuits. The most common ones are Patent retaliation clauses. This is nothing strange, and has existed for a rather long time. It would not be a stretch to expand this to trademark lawsuits.

The company I work for might be applicable to write a letter in support. What email address should I use for getting help in drafting such a letter, and convincing management to get on board?

The website mentions psf-trademarks@python.org in reference to completed letters, should I contact that email address for help in drafting a letter?

You can contact me, van@python.org. Thanks!

Is it possible to put a link to this post on Python news page?

http://python.org/news/

I'm going to forward this to some people working with Python in Europe, and I guess a link to the homepage might look more credible that to a blog.

Yep, good point - I'm working on it (blog poster who is on a new laptop without a working website checkout).

FYI, there is now a mention on the news list (also shown on the front page) which links to the blog post.

FWIW, I am regularly contacted to be hired as a Python developer (notably by Luxembourg folks). Throughout job offers in computers, there is no ambiguity as to what Python means.

Do you have any old offers of employment that you could share? The more and the older the better.

At the University of Leuven (Belgium), from this year on, all first year engineering students learn how to program in Python. Not yet an official reference to it but professor Dutre who teaches the course mentions it already on twitter: https://twitter.com/philipdutre/status/279716437982064640 https://twitter.com/philipdutre/status/301760614416674816

At least Aalto University in Finland uses Python as the entry level teaching language nowadays [1]. I don't know anyone from the CS department but I'll do my best to reach out to them about the matter.

[1]: https://noppa.aalto.fi/noppa/kurssi/t-106.1208/

Thank you!

University Of Glasgow as well, and this (rather incomplete) list from your own website, http://wiki.python.org/moin/SchoolsUsingPython#United_Kingdo....

There is no universities from Denmark on that list, and I know that several of them offer courses in Python.

I've reached out to a professor from University of Copenhagen who teaches a course on Molecular Dynamics using Python.

Another course from Copenhagen teaching Python is listed here http://sis.ku.dk/kurser/viskursus.aspx?knr=130419

DTU (Technical University of Denmark) also has a Python course http://www.kurser.dtu.dk/02820.aspx?menulanguage=en

We're also introducing Python in the Cambridge CS course for computer vision practicals.

Some universities and engineering schools in France are teaching Python or using Python in some classes. The one I attended (Télécom Bretagne) does. Here is, for instance, a course about Sage and Python: http://formations.telecom-bretagne.eu/fad/course/view.php?id...

Here is a job offer by a research laboratory: http://fr.lolix.org/search/offre/offre.php?id=15660

The French Python association has a Web page with lots of job offers too: http://www.afpy.org/jobs

Tartu University in Estonia apparently uses Python for introductory programming course that is called "Programming".

Description of the course and its objectives, both in Estonian and English: https://www.is.ut.ee/reports/rwservlet?oa_aine_info.rdf+1010...

Learning material, in Estonian but there is Python code everywhere: http://courses.cs.ut.ee/2011/programmeerimine/uploads/Arvuti...

waiting for LibreOffice to download so I can wack things together for you. I am a UK developer/student.

I'll be including:

    - screencap of my github profile (4 or 5 projects written in python)
    - 2 approaches from companies wanting to hire me (through LinkedIn) because I had 
      "Python" listed on my profile
    - Academic references which use "Python" the programming language in a title or 
      abstract.
    - evidence of my experience with Linux (i.e. that python is preinstalled in many 
      many distributions),
    - evidence that I am writing the majority of my PhD code (I'll get you line 
      counts) in Python.

This makes me very very angry. If you have the address of the company or anything, I'd also like to write to them to tell them they're insane to try this - they're an embarrassment to the UK.

EuroPython conference - Googling I get mentions back to 2001. I'm sure you could get in touch with the organisers for promo material etc http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2001-November/00...

If conferences are useful, there's also EuroSciPy and PyCon UK, where even the two letters Py unambiguously refer to the Python language.

Would not Google search, Wikipedia and Stackoverflow statistic be of some worth to show what the dominant usage of the word python is in the realm of software?

This does need to be in relation to Python being used prior to the acquisition of python.co.uk, presumably, which means all of those are insufficient.

The exception is Google's USENET cache.

Canonical is based in London UK. Ubuntu makes extensive use of python scripting (I believe Shuttleworth used Python for his original Thawte software). Perhaps they would be prepared to provide evidence statements if approached?

Mate of mine that works at Canonical on Ubuntu says they're aware of it (and are likely preparing evidence)

Excellent, I shall refrain from contacting the uk Ubuntu mailing list regulars in that case

I help run barrapunto.com, a Slasdhot clone in Spanish backed by a Spanish company. We have a Python topic that refers to the Python language. We lost some of our early content, but currently our first story on that topic is from October 2001:

http://softlibre.barrapunto.com/article.pl?sid=01/10/20/0982...

Using Archive.org, I can find a story about the release of Python 2.0 from October 2000:

http://web.archive.org/web/20001214042200/http://barrapunto....

This last one is shown on this front page with a different design:

http://web.archive.org/web/20001018174909/http://barrapunto....

Have you tried filing a dispute resolution claim with Nominet to revoke python.co.uk. Their policy is here:

http://www.nominet.org.uk/disputes/when-use-drs/policy-and-p...

You might have a case under 3c(ii).

Edit: By the way, Nominet themselves use (or used) mailman, which uses Python:

https://lists.nominet.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/nom-steer

So you might have some sympathy there.

I suspect the only reason PoBox/Veber are now filing a trademark is to pre-empt a challenge on the domain. They are just domain squatters who got hold of python.co.uk and now see it as investment -- possibly one of their last chances at surviving, seeing how they're rumoured to be £ 300k in debt.

We're a UK based company whose stack is almost completely built in Python - one official letter of support is winging its way to your lawyers as we speak.

Do the owners of python.co.uk not have to prove the legitimacy of their right to the name as well? I'm fairly sure that trademark law works on the principle that you have to be seen to defend your trademark in order for it to be considered your intellectual property (it's why you often see silly stories in the news about big companies chasing after trivial businesses then settling quietly out of court). As the other company has let "their" trademark fester for 13 years, I can't see how they have any legitimate legal claim.

Would someone care to address the faults in my comment rather than just voting me down?

I asked a legitimate question.

The argument works both ways: if the PSF cannot assert a trademark on the name "Python," the owners of the python.co.uk domain shouldn't be able to take ownership of the name either. Why are they trying to do it right now?

Well that's partly my point.

The owners of python.co.uk have waited 13 years to make a complaint about others using their trademark. And due to this, are arguably in a weak position to claim ownership of the trademark.

So my question is this; are the owners of python.co.uk also being challenged to prove they've used their trademark? Are the owners of python.co.uk being challenged to prove that they've tried to enforce control over the trademark over the 13 years leading up to this case?

If you want an example of what I mean, then check domain name trademark policy: http://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy/

> "All other WordPress-related businesses or projects can use the WordPress name and logo to refer to and explain their services, but they cannot use them as part of a product, project, service, domain, or company name and they cannot use them in any way that suggests an affiliation with or endorsement by the WordPress Foundation or the WordPress open source project. For example, a consulting company can describe its business as “123 Web Services, offering WordPress consulting for small businesses,” but cannot call its business “The WordPress Consulting Company.” Similarly, a business related to WordPress themes can describe itself as “XYZ Themes, the world’s best WordPress themes,” but cannot call itself “The WordPress Theme Portal.”

> Similarly, it’s OK to use the WordPress or WordCamp logo as part of a page that describes your products or services, but it is not OK to use it as part of your company or product logo or branding itself. Under no circumstances is it permitted to use WordPress or WordCamp as part of a top-level domain name."

The reason for this is quite simple, they've been seen to enforce their trademark so if there's ever any disputes, Wordpress are on strong legal ground. However python.co.uk owners have allowed the name -"their" trademark- to be borrowed and used globally. So it's now a grey issue as to whether the aforementioned still have a legal right to that trademark.

So if I understand trademark law, then the PSF should also be challenging python.co.uk to prove that they've made any effort to enforce their trademark before now. I hope for PSF's sake that I am right here because that would put them in a much stronger position to win this dispute than just proving the widespread use of the term under their context alone.

As long as you registered the trademark this first of all is your legitimacy - that's why you register it.

This registration has been opposed so I assume now PSF via their UK counsellor will add some evidence to the opposition. If the opposition is successful it can turn out that owners of pythong.co.uk will not be able to get the trademark registration into a successful status.

So right now, they don't need to defend anything, it's more or less that they are opposed. Which is why the PSF needs your help to find evidence and show how the name actually is and was used to finally show probably either that:

- the EU trademark belongs to PSF (or elseone PYTHON related) - the name can not be trademarked at all in that class because it has its distinct, public meaning in internet/computing.

I see. Thank you for clearing that up

I'm going to ask my manager if I can write a letter on behalf of us, we're in the TeliaSonera family of companies.

But I also think you should hawk some merchandise. T-shirts with the snake, or the Python logo. This would even help your case if people around the world were wearing them or sending in photos wearing them.

It should be stressed that usage of the mark must be shown to be of more than local significance to defeat the application from the UK company. Consequently it is vital that folks from as many EU countries as possible respond to the request in the post.

I am surprised in some ways that you couldn't have attracted some pro bono assistance for this cause. This is a case that I would have loved to have drafted the opposition pleadings in relation to.

Although I would hope that the media attention that should arise as a result of this application would be sufficient to cause the applicant to withdraw their application, or at the very least narrow down the specification to hosting services.

Even if the specification was narrowed down, the likelihood of confusion is still high in my view.

This is a good read on the criteria that will have to be satisfied:

http://assets.itma.org.uk/OHIM_Oppositions_based_on_Unregist...

Finally, good luck!

Thanks for your words - and we would love to get your assistance and advice. Unfortunately, our network of Python-using lawyers is much thinner in Europe than in the US. Feel free to contact me!

Sure thing - will send an email. Looks like K&S have got things fully under control at present (had a look at the OHIM filings) but happy to be a sounding board or provide whatever input I can.

I am from the UK and been programming in Python since before that domain was registered and happy to help.

Am I missing something, if you go to Amazon.co.uk and search for "python" (not just in books, but a top level saerch) - (e.g. http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%...) the top results are all books about the Python programming language published in the UK.

Similarly search for "Python" on any Uk based jobs site

http://jobsearch.monster.co.uk/jobs/?q=Python&cy=uk http://www.technojobs.co.uk/search.phtml/Python/searchfield/...

(can provide many more such links if you need)

There is no doubt about what Python means.

Thanks - this is a great thought. Our UK lawyers are going to be receiving a pretty decent Python library. :)

Are there similar books in German, Italian, French, and Spanish?

Yes of course, go to amazon.de for example and search for "python".

Yes, lots. A quick sample below just based on searching amazon.{fr,it,es,de}. Good luck.

French:

Apprendre à programmer avec Python 3 (Learn to program with python 3) http://www.amazon.fr/Apprendre-%C3%A0-programmer-avec-Python...

Python - Les Fondamentaux du langage (Python: foundations of the language) http://www.amazon.fr/Python-fondamentaux-langage-Nouvelle-%C...

German:

Python 3: Das umfassende Handbuch (Python 3: The Comprehensive Handbook) http://www.amazon.de/Python-umfassende-Handbuch-Galileo-Comp...

Python von Kopf bis Fuß (Python from Head to Toe) http://www.amazon.de/Python-von-Kopf-bis-Fu%C3%9F/dp/3897213...

Einstieg in Python (Starting python) http://www.amazon.de/Einstieg-Python-Programmieranf%C3%A4nge...

Spanish:

Python para administración de sistemas Unix y Linux (Python for Unix and Linux System Administration) http://www.amazon.es/Python-administraci%C3%B3n-sistemas-Ore...

Python 3 - al descubierto (Python 3 Discovered) http://www.amazon.es/Python-descubierto-Arturo-Fernandez-Mon...

Python. Guía de referencia (Python Reference Guide) http://www.amazon.es/Python-referencia-Oreilly-anaya-Multime...

Italian:

Programmazione in Python (Programming in Python) http://www.amazon.it/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1/276-0254377-1517700?...

Imparare Python (Learn Python) http://www.amazon.it/Imparare-Python-Mark-Lutz/dp/8848125956...

http://www.amazon.fr/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_0_6?__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M...

French one: http://www.amazon.fr/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C...

First ten results are about Python the language. Search not restricted to computer programming books. One of the book published in 2007.

Swedish book https://www.adlibris.com/se/product.aspx?isbn=9144045204

Python in course name https://www.kth.se/student/kurser/kurs/BB3110

Python in job ad http://www.arbetsformedlingen.se/4.38a41afd11d99fbdb65800016...

Here is a french magazine with python on the cover in 2000: http://www.ed-diamond.com/produit.php?ref=lmag17&id_rubr...

I remember some other french magazine having a python introduction from a bit before.

I also have some really old SuSE CDs from that point in time with python on it.

Europe seems to see Python as the name of a computer langauge.

CERN uses Python.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cern+python

They developed the PythonRoot package: http://alcaraz.home.cern.ch/alcaraz/PythonRoot/

It's probably of interest that this and many other Python packages have the word "Python" in the name of the package. I would hate to have to wonder whether PythonCoolPackage was for the Python language, or for interaction with some random company who chose Python as their trademark. I know that if something says Python today it's most likely to do with the language.

The EuroPython Conference is certainly about the language. There are probably other European conferences where you can assume that Python means Python.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=epc2006+python

(pdf) https://downloads.egenix.com/python/EPC2006-Developing-Unico...

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=python+conference+europe

Airbus is hiring. They want people with Python on their resume:

http://www.airbus.com/work/experienced-candidates/opportunit...

I think Python means Python in Europe.

Yes, in Europe as well, I can confirm. In IT, Python is the programming language. On Google, even typed as a single word, it appears also on top of the search results beneath the animal.

It's above the animal for me.

Come on... who names an animal after a programming language? :D

Google's not an accurate gauge these days as it's results will be biased depending on who's performing the search.

Google results are trailered to the user based on location, search habits and so on.

Is that true when you're not logged in to google? Do they tailor based on IP or browser fingerprint?

Both, from what I've seen.

PyPy was funded by the European Union as a Specific Targeted Research Project between December 2004 and March 2007. http://cordis.europa.eu/search/index.cfm?fuseaction=proj.doc...

Yep, this is a part of our documentation for the case.

There are thousands of European companies using Python. Some very notable companies too like http://www.distilled.net/ as well as dozens of huge financial organisations such as http://www.cqs.ch/.

I work at Microsoft on http://pytools.codeplex.com & https://www.windowsazure.com/en-us/develop/python. LMK what we can do to help by getting MSFT's legal team on this.

Shahrokh, great to see this. I'll pass it on and see what we can work out.

You might see about http://www.python.co.uk/ using the Microsoft logo on their website. (Along with Dell, Cisco, NetApp, Juniper, and Raritan).

Similar thing happened with the Perl trademark in Japan back in 2010 - http://blogs.perl.org/users/lestrrat/2011/09/perl-trademark-...

Fortunately it was resolved. Don't know if contacting someone at TPF or Japan Perl Association might be helpful here?

TPF - http://www.perlfoundation.org

JPA - http://japan.perlassociation.org

Lestrrat (Daisuke Maki, author of the trademark blog post) contact details can be found on his MetaCPAN page - https://metacpan.org/author/DMAKI

Contact Google. I'd venture that the chances of support are not low. Not only do they have the mentality, they also had Guido van Rossum, python's inventor and head developer, employed for years. And they are certainly well-known 8)

Guido moved to Dropbox recently.

I know, I used the past tense! But I doubt they dropped support for python overnight because he left %)

Also Python is one of their primary languages in-house!

To say that Python is one of google's main languages might be a bit of an overstatement. I think that they are mainly a C++/Go/Java shop and use Python for glue code, or so I have been told by employees. This could be wrong, though.

"Glue code" might be a little unfair, but it does tend to be much more used for internal tools than customer-facing code. I don't know official numbers, but I would think it'd still be still the #3 language after C++ and Java.

It's not an overstatement, please watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKQS8EDG1P4

Actually he is at Dropbox now, but contacting Google is still a solid try.

Dropbox has a Dublin, Ireland office. We can probably get Dropbox's support from this front.

http://techcrunch.com/2012/12/03/dropbox-follows-the-tech-cr...

Great thought. We are doing this.

This is mostly OT, but when browsing python.org for listed corporate sponsors, I noticed that some characters like ä or é are rendered as diamonds. This is because the page charset is utf-8, but the mentioned characters are encoded in iso-8859-1.

http://python.org/psf/donations/

Yeah, minor as can be, but IMO when someone donates they should've have spelled their name right. I'm reporting this here because someone who can fix this is most likely reading.

PS. IMO there is not much reason to worry. Python has so many friends. Google should buy the company and close it.

>PS. IMO there is not much reason to worry. Python has so many friends. Google should buy the company and close it.

I think they should go to court. I somehow miss the SCO guy and his suitcase.

> PS. IMO there is not much reason to worry. Python has so many friends. Google should buy the company and close it.

And therefore make their attempted coup work, by giving them loads of money?

Makes no sense. Better fight this, make them pay legal costs, and drive them back into insignificance.

It's sort of ironic and myopic for this little service to want to infringe or start an issue with the Python, or even the programming community at large. They do cloud hosting? So then I imagine a good portion of their business deals with developers? That's a pretty good tact, I wonder how that will work out for them. I wonder if they think they will get good publicity out of this.

The best part about it is their servers probably come with Python preinstalled, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the devs/sysadmins script in python on the servers.

I just emailed them directly along the same lines. Not a flame, just a reasonable message with a link to this thread and a comment about possible negative public relations fallout.

I've also suggested this as a story for The Register. Should generate more evidence and a good head of righteous indignation.

I did an RHCE exam in 2003, in their place in Surrey (Guildford IIRC). I am pretty sure that Red Hat is a long time user and has been using Python to mean the language in their software and documentation in the UK a long time ago. Can you contact Red Hat or users of their software of exams for the last twenty years to confirm that? I imagine they would be happy to help.

Great idea - will do.

Why would an obscure IT company want the name Python ? Aren't they guaranteeing nobody will ever be able to locate them with a google search for example ?

They're hoping to cash out in lawsuits.

psf ain't rich. UK courts don't like gold diggers especially. Could end badly for python-as-cloud-storage-company

Excellent point. I was searching just today for a good handout or resource for statistics students on how to organise numerical information into tables (the kind you make in word processors). I kept getting references to database design/programming. The old meaning of 'table' is shadowed in Google by the computer science meaning.

What stings a little more is that the webserver at python.co.uk is running Debian[1], which contains some version of Python by default (even in the minimal install).

I hope our trademark office has the sense to reject this.

[1]: http://builtwith.com/python.co.uk

>They blew us off and responded by filing the community trademark application claiming the exclusive right to use "Python" for software, servers, and web services - everywhere in Europe. //

I'm not a TM lawyer by a long shot but this looks like a knee-jerk response to an entirely frivolous claim.

Python lacks distinctiveness in the category covering software because it describes a long standing computer language and is moreover already associated with other companies, such as PSF. OHIM or whoever is assessing the application have to refuse the grant on this basis otherwise there would be a severe curtailment to the ability for practitioners in the field to describe basic and essential tools without confusion.

To grant such a term as a trademark, an indicator that goods and services carrying the mark "python" originate with Veber/Pobox, would be an absolute travesty akin to granting someone a mark for Jeans or Denim in the relevant categories for clothing.

It worries me slightly to see that this appeal has been made because it suggests a deficiency in legal counsel; unless the intention is to counter-sue.

Trademark primacy can be established by long term use but holding a domain name with a mark in [particularly one like Python that is established as a {non-registered?} trade mark already, eg of PSF] doesn't demonstrate use of a trade mark for trade. Moreover as I understand the TM law in the UK/EC it should [according to statute] be impossible for anyone to register a trade mark from under you, that is you would still be able to continue your prior usage of the term. In this respect a RTM is somewhat like a patent, you can't prevent someone from continuing in their prior [public] usage. As a quibble grant of a registered trademark doesn't necessarily give exclusive rights for this very reason.

On a side note, it seems they are also only applying for an image mark? That would make the claim that they're trying to prevent your use of the term Python wrong, they can only prevent you using their image or one confusingly like it as I understand it.

FWIW the earliest CTM relevant Vienna class 9 application I could find was from an individual in Germany from 2002 (002567972) and that the use was for something to do with automobile tuning (see eg http://www.offroad-forum.de/viewtopic.php?t=11763&start=...). PSF have an established use before that.

They are claiming the image mark, but the image is the word "Python" with only minimal embellishment. Further, they have added broader rights in private conversation.

There's at least one company that already has a similar trademark registered, indeed looking at the Python image marks this one from Veber looks pretty close to a prior registered one (also in class 9 IIRC).

PSF are not going to want to use this companies image mark, really.

You don't gain legal rights by mentioning in conversation what you wish you had the right to do/prevent.

Should be "Nice class 9", not Vienna, sorry.

JetBrains might be able to help, their HQ is in the Czech Republic and they sell PyCharm an IDE for Python development:

http://www.jetbrains.com/company/contacts/index.jsp#Local

In case no-one's already thought of it: Raspberry Pi is based in the UK, and Python is the default 'educational language' on the boards, as per their FAQ.

Wow, this won't suffice?

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=python

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=python+software

I'd go with a date range like http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=python&hl=en&sa=X&#...

I'll see your date range (I didn't know about that), and raise you "site:.uk" http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=python&hl=en&sa=X&#...

It's unclear from this whether or not Python would have to change the name of the programming language if they didn't get the trademark, or whether this UK company would just have the right to call their products "Python" too.

Early in the article it says: "There is a company in the UK that is trying to trademark the use of the term "Python" for all software, services, servers... pretty much anything having to do with a computer.".

And later it says, where the Python foundation is soliciting comments: "your view that another company using term Python to refer to services, software, and servers would be confusing".

I for one hope the Python foundation doesn't get an exclusive trademark for all "software, services, servers" in the E.U. Outside of software "Python" is a well-known generic name for an animal, I don't think the EU should be protecting such generic names.

But on the other hand it would also suck if this U.K. company gained exclusive use over the trademark.

Good point! I guess it would be fine as long as the UK company does not gain exclusive rights to Python, I don't think that would be possible with EU law though, I'm pretty sure you can't get a trademark for the name of an animal.

You can trade mark any word provided it is not descriptive of the goods and services you want to apply it to, and that it is also distinctive.

I could get the trade mark for python for software, but would be unlikely to get the mark for snake-keeping services, to give a rough example.

Our main point of contention is that they are claiming that the right to be the sole source of "Python" software, servers, and services. We have reached out to them to try to reach some accommodation (they can be "Python backup services," for example) but they are not willing to take us seriously.

It still isn't clear to me whether your purpose here is inclusive (you don't want to lose the right to use "Python" as a trademark) or exclusive (you don't want this company to be able to use "Python" for its server products). At first I thought the former, but a close reading of your post suggests it may be the latter. Please clarify.

If your purpose is exclusive, then I can't support you. There is an open source Common Lisp implementation, originally developed at CMU in the mid-1980s, whose compiler is called Python. It is still in use. I think a compiler and a language are close enough that you have no exclusive right to the name.

That's not the way trademarks work. Trademarks cover one or more industries, so your snake is completely safe. In fact, if you wanted to make a car called the Python or a chair called the Python or just about anything else called the Python, you would be welcome to it (assuming somebody else hadn't trademarked that). Even in software, you could incorporate the word Python as long as it didn't cause confusion (for instance, making the game "Snake: a Young Python's Journey" would most likely be fine [note: IANAL]).

However, due to the "fight for it or lose it" nature, if this company was given the trademark, they would have no choice but to threaten legal action against the PSF and everybody who produces something with Python in the name: a very large group of people, products and companies.

like this for example...

http://www.amazon.com/Master-Lock-Adjustable-Camouflage-8418...

Probably those companies with products with Python in its name will be interested in this. You could contact them

It's a different Nice class, it's not relevant.

>if this company was given the trademark, they would have no choice but to threaten legal action against the PSF //

I'm afraid that, at least in UK and USA, you're wrong in your assumption of "fight for it or lose it".

You have to pay your registration fees and use the trademark for trade. You can allow unpaid use, you can even ignore de minimis use without any notification.

Even if it were "fight it or lose it" then it would only be for use of their mark to indicate the origin of goods or services that they could object to. If it's clear the goods don't originate with the owners of Python RTM then there is no trademark infringement (this doesn't quite apply to "famous" marks however that get extra protection).

"Fight it or lose it" sort of applies to genericisation but there's absolutely no chance that python is going to become a generic term in the software field for something other than python-the-language for the foreseeable future.

On a general issue I don't think it's right for PSF to attempt to gain a registered mark for python in the context of computing. Nor indeed should any sane TM office grant them a word mark as python is not distinct enough to indicate that goods or services originate with PSF. Indeed in terms of CTM it appears a registration is held by an individual that covers the software class already.

EVE-Online, a big MMO uses Python for it's servers and clients and they even contribute to Stackless Python source. They are in Iceland. Maybe you could try contacting them.

I'm not worried, judges in Europe are usually quite reasonable. Ask the judge for the python.co.uk while you're at it. I love Python, best of luck!

First there's Google. They are heavy on Python and has several offices in the EU. I think the original version of their crawler was written in Python.

Academia: Cambridge has a Python course. I think Python as a teaching language has potential to go quite far back. Historical documents could be course catalogues, slides, handouts or even exams.

Commercial training: Quick Googling brings up qa.com and learningtree.co.uk, both are in the UK and have Python training and (obviously) a commercial interest in the word retaining it's meaning. They might very well have old marketing material or invoices for Python training lying around.

A few of the Cambridge Python courses:

http://www.ucs.cam.ac.uk/docs/course-notes/unix-courses/Pyth...

http://www.ucs.cam.ac.uk/docs/course-notes/unix-courses/Nume...

http://www.ucs.cam.ac.uk/docs/course-notes/unix-courses/pyth...

Since UCS at Cambridge have been teaching Python for a long time, you could request a statement of support from them: escience-support@ucs.cam.ac.uk

Even if they finally manage to register the 'python' trademark, I guess their project will be so severely boycotted that it won't stand a chance of succeeding. I think they've just found a way to get advertisement for free and they will finally give up with the trademark claim, but that's just a wild guess.

What I'd like to point out is that in many countries there is the concept of 'unregistered trademark':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unregistered_trademark

Quoting from the Wikipedia page:

They may however benefit from protection due to other features of the law in relation to trademarks, such as protection for unregistered marks in the United Kingdom resulting from Passing off law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_off

Passing off is a common law tort which can be used to enforce unregistered trademark rights.

I am not a lawyer and I cannot tell if the above applies to the current situation. I am just pointing it out just in case 'python' can be considered as an unregistered trademark (held by the Python Foundation) in the UK and thus get any benefits or protection from any local laws.

My 2 cents

Since anyfoo suggested contacting Google, it may be worthwhile contacting GCHQ [1] (they are the UK intelligence / code breaking agency). It is a very possible that they use Python internally. Since they are public sector rather than private sector it may not be of much help, but it is just an idea. Hope it helps!

[1]: http://www.gchq.gov.uk/

GCHQ / CESG probably aren't going to say anything that's not in their published literature.

Maybe one of the recruitment leaflets talks about Python, but the one I saw didn't mention it.

(http://www.gchq-careers.co.uk/media/21423/gchq_technical.pdf)

> Facing some of the most complex challenges in the industry, our work ranges from small teams with each individual working the whole engineering lifecycle, through to £multi-million programmes staffed by specialist professionals cutting across industry, government and national boundaries. From Software Developers (primarily Java, JEE, C and C++), Database Developers (Oracle), Software Designers and Architects (with OO, UML) to Configuration Managers, Build and Integration Managers and more, the roles here are many and varied.

I have been developing in python in Spain (EU) since long ago and I can't see how a product called "Python", as in "I will buy the latest Python server" or "We have connected the radius to the Python Authentication Web Service" is going to confuse anyone.

I can see how this issue bothers the PSF, but I don't think PSF can claim "python" name for every technical-related topic.

I think a much better approach would be talking to them and agree a link on each other web, ie:

Python.org says: "Were you looking python awesome servers? Click here" And Python.co.uk will say: "Were you looking for awesome python software development resources? Click here"

Python (PSF) and Python (servers and web services) only have in common that are "technical related" but they are not competing with each other and I can't see a clear missunderstanding on this topic.

But, this is my POV, and I might be wrong =)

I happen to think that you are wrong.

As someone who only started teaching himself the python language last week (but who has seen it around the web for a lot longer) I would naturally assume that "Python server" was some variation of the python language meant for web tasks.

In the context of IT, the word "Python" for me refers unambiguously to the programming language, and any other uses of this word in the context of IT would be very confusing.

I could not for instance create a programming language called "Google" and expect to get away with it...

I don't agree you. "Python server" won't never be a development kit name, maybe Python Server Development Kit (PSDK, which I'm about to register :P [just kidding]).

Maybe two sysadmin talking each other will say "I'm going to start the python server" and if they have a Python Machine and a piece of python software who accomplish a task it will be a bit confusing. But I don't think that an user searching for information about python software development is going to get confused about this.

I think this is quite close to the "iPhone" dispute in Brazil. Do you think that somebody searching for an Apple iPhone in Brazil is going to get confused with a Gradiente Eletronica SA gadget?

The same thing is happening here.

-- About your "google" suggestion, this is completely different. Google is not a common noun, it is "invented" and it has a rightful trademark. But I guess you can create a programming language called apple. Apple will try to dispute it, but you will certainly keep the apple name after the resolution.

Again, this is my POV =)

As a Saas provider within the recruitment business we have plenty of examples of where Python is used to categorize candidates proficient in Python. There is not a bit of ambiguity there.

There is a button on their facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/PythonCloud) called "Suggest a change" (freely translated that from what I actually see in dutch, so it might be different), It's next to the little info link below their "avatar".

What if we all suggest a unique name and they can pick a new one from something awesome one of us has suggested?

Concentrating on the other company: A Google search for [python hosting] doesn't even return them on the first page of hits; it returns a bunch of other companies offering hosting for python (the language) stuff or questions about hosting python (the language) based stuff.

You offered them the limited "python cloud hosting" and they refused? Baffling. Good Luck.

Its probably a way of getting higher rank on "python cloud servers". Cloud servers is actually claimed as trademark by rackspace:)

There's at least a 1995 European patent application and ~500 others [listed on Google patents for Europe] up to 2009 mentioning python programming language.

In 2009 there's EP2109040A2 which demonstrates a European usage of python by a skilled practitioner in the art specifically to designate the language stewarded by PSF .

The UK company didn't miss to exactly take the same international classes (009, 042) the PSF had choosen back in 2004 when they registered the PYTHON mark with the US copyright office. So that's more distinct than what others do, even if some of those two classes also collide with other trademark registrations for PYTHON.

It may be interesting to check archive.org for old job openings. For instance, this one at RIPE NCC, in Amsterdam, from 2006:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070101144833/http://www.ripe.ne...

This is a prime example of why you have to vigorously police and defend a trade mark in order to reap the benefits from it. People complain when a large company does it to a small one, but if they don't they can easily find themselves in a situation like this.

It is the sad truth of the current trademark/patent system.

I am currently creating my own product, and the very first thing I made was to create a new name, and claim the mark. It cost me some money, but not that much compared to the risk of being in trouble with trolls.

The sad things is that by doing this, I am probably feeding the complexity of the system myself.

They don't have a company registered in the UK under Python. Register a company called Python Language Limited and shorten it to Python in correspondence.

You can trade under that name, even if it's a trademark.

The same as you can call yourself Fairy Limited and not sell washing up liquid.

Seeing that Guido Van Rossum is Dutch and invented the language in Netherlands, has he said anything about this?

Can't the university where Python was invented be contacted to help as well with any relevant information or documentation?

In the spirit of programming languages, they should rename Python to P.

  >>> "C".encode("rot13")
  'P'

How could anyone (that seems to be selling cloud servers) think this is a good business strategy. I really don't get how some people think about the software industry as a whole I suppose.

Perhaps you should bring up the Raspberry Pi as Python is its main language and it is being used in schools all over the UK and the government is helping to support the project.

Can we help from outside the EU? Would it carry more weight to show that the entire worldwide development community recognises Python as referring to Python-the-language.

A well known Creative Commons spanish book published in 2008: http://mundogeek.net/tutorial-python/

Oo, some companies are definitive assholes. I am in the US but I run a company in france that does software development, will try to mail you a letter.

Those fing trolls are getting more insolent day by day. Hopefully they will get all the negative publicity to ruin their company after this.

What an assholes. They are selling a service taking advantage of free software while simultaneous trying to steal from the whole community.

Does a domain name registration really have any correlation with the concept of trademarks?

How did trademarks work before the Internet was there then?

When I saw the design of that site, I thought it was a scam :-( Anyway, I'm a EU citizen, so I'll definitely contact them.

It is a scam. If they claim they are involved with software and computers they must know of python. Stuff like this does not happen by accident.

You should get in touch with the raspberry pi foundation. They're respected in the UK and they promote the use of python

Just checked on this today and python.co.uk is now pointing to python.org. Has this been resolved?

Python is from 1980 first public release 1998 So to a judge ask them the meaning of prior art. One cannt copyright what allready exists in the public domain, even if it was not copyrighted. You only need to proof you where earlier.

Reminds me of apple-samsung and phone shapes, and then someone found an old startrek movie allready showing such devices.

The judge would tell you that "prior art" is irrelevant here. This isn't about patents or copyrights. They are filing for a trademark...

They've got the terminology wrong but _prior_use_ of the mark "python" in relation to software is indeed relevant.

As a non-EU citizen (USA), is there anything that I can do to help?

What about people would start using original and easy to Google names for languages and APIs / frameworks / etc.? (I know Python predates Google but still).

No more three-letters acronyms: PHP, APL, RPG, PL/I (ok, there a slash in addition to the three-letters but still).

No more names that refer to someone who existed (either first name or last name or surname) or a common word: Pascal, Logo, Java, Go, Racket, Haskell... Pffft!

Geez. You have to wonder how the people smart enough to write a language gaining sufficient traction can be so stupid at naming the language.

Here, let's look at a car: oh, "Muffler". Now that's a great name for a programming language. Wait. "Horn" is good too. Common, let's name it "Wheel". Wait, no: "Steering". I'm so smart.

Or let's go to the zoo and pick an animal?

Or... You know what, use Google and try to find a name which isn't commonly used and which hence hasn't much chance of being widely used.

And then it becomes your brand and trademark and intellectual property and what-not-I-am-not-lawyer-but-you-can-nitpick.

I get what you mean, but making names up is torture in most communication channels. The best example I can think of is Hadoop. Even though it's mostly spelled like it sounds, I've never seen anyone remember it right off the bat. Python, as an english word, sticks in your mind with the correct spelling. Unless you see if spelled out, Hadoop is kind of a fuzzy, nonsense word.

I don't have any studies to cite, but that's my experience with technical and nontechnical people. Java is a easy to remember and usually not misheard, Hadoop is hard to remember initially. Don't even get me started on Sqoop.

Python - too big to fail...

If they mess with Python, anonymous should rape them.

Since their business all revolves around data, Anons shouldn't have too much trouble destructing their business to pieces.

I think we should use legal remedies here. Mob rule is not an appropriate way of resolving this, and I suspect that once the company realises how unpopular (radioactive?) this will be in PR terms they will reconsider. Also, EU trademark courts are sensibleish

you can't

why would

I don't

WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD TRY TO TAKE 'PYTHON' FROM PYTHON?

I want to destroy them with internet rage.

HN is not reddit. If it helps though, intellectual property disputes are resolved on the facts of specific cases, rather than headlines. Even a loss for the PSF May not be that bad, as there is likely to be a ruling that both marks could coexist, given Python's long heritage and no evidence on consumer confusion.

These kind of problems are so stupid that they should not even exist... Please start using your brain and don't try to trick other in so low issues...

PS: We could send 1000 of email to that company just asking to stop the cause...

We could make a PYTHON script to send this email ten times a day...

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