Any advice / thoughts / concerns / considerations anyone could provide would be greatly appreciated.
It's definitely a goofy, pompous, rambling letter written by someone who doesn't know what he doesn't know yet. But assuming the business is profitable, there's zero chance that you or his parents can stop him from pursuing it at this point. I think this 15-year old's decision is made, and the point to intervene might have been when he started employing people.
I wasn't particularly academic, but wasn't driven / confident enough at college to start a business either. So I got my grades, degree etc. first, and have never given a CV to anyone. But I think anyone who gets that far, got through education to 18 or 21 and says they got nothing out of it years later is pretty stupid or short-sighted.
A year of computer science at college turned me from a know-it-all hacker into a grateful know-nothing. Two years of classics before that showed me how to spot when I was hopelessly bored and only trying to fulfil others' expectations, while I built a great relationship with my wife. You get something out of such a dense set of life experiences, but you might have to work it out what it was afterwards.
I'd say to the parents let him go, with a stern & overblown warning that he'd better not fuck it up. If he's burned out or bored of the hosting business at 17 or 18, there's nothing stopping him from resuming his education if that's what he wants - it's just doing things in a different order.
Further, I find it a bit odd that the kid, knowing that his parents are paying thousands of dollars (I'm assuming) to attend a private school decides to start neglecting his classes. I'm likely just not doing a good job of understanding his point of view, but it feels selfish and immature.
Did he not want to discuss his ambitions with his parents? They clearly care about him (at least, remarkably more than many of the kids that went to my high school).
Is the company really consuming all of his time? Or is this letter satisfying a desire to rebel? These are important questions to ask him (but probably in a less confrontational tone).
School is something you can always come back to, but once you start into the family/kids part of your life it becomes a lot more difficult for most people. The best time to be in school is when you don't have any responsibilities to support anyone else.
There are people who say “I'll never need this math -- these trig identities from 10th grade or 11th grade.” Or maybe you never learned them. Here's the catch: whether or not you ever use the math that you learned in school, the act of having learned the math established a wiring in your brain that didn't exist before, and it's the wiring in your brain that makes you the problem solver.
If possible, learning physics and managing a Minecraft hosting company is clearly better than just the latter.
> That said, for most people the purpose of school is to prepare them to be able to support themselves and their families, and it sounds like he's basically able to do that now.
The real question you have to ask is whether you can do both (impractical and practical) -- if you can do both, then it is clearly better than doing one.
You may not realize it now, but a lot of things that seem impractical can become very useful (or at the very least, fascinating) when provided with the right context. For example, if you ever want to learn about how your computer works on the inside, knowing basic physics will give you better perspective on what's happening. More obscure stuff like Quantum Tunneling starts appearing in technologies like NAND flash memory -- it's not necessarily practical to know all that, but I'm very happy that I know it.
Forget I even said anything.
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Sixty Symbols - http://www.sixtysymbols.com/
Periodic Videos - http://www.periodicvideos.com/
Crash Course - http://www.youtube.com/user/crashcourse
The Brain Scoop - http://www.youtube.com/thebrainscoop
Smarter Every Day - http://www.youtube.com/destinws2
Vi Hart - http://www.youtube.com/vihart
George Hart - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTl0dASnxto6j2wlVs5Bs2Q
Numberphile - http://www.numberphile.com/
Vsauce - http://www.youtube.com/user/Vsauce
TED-Ed - http://www.youtube.com/teded
MinuteEarth - http://www.youtube.com/user/minuteearth
You don't know what you don't know. You can have a fine career in programming without math -- but with math you can have many great careers.
Keep taking math and working hard at it. Stop when it gets too hard.
Two of my three favorite classes in college were math classes -- combinatorics and algorithms.
and we're not talking a lemonade stand. he's doing the heavy lifting at a hosting company; networking, Linux administration, programming.
all of which are disciplines in their own right
do you really think he'll have trouble rounding himself out by reading broadly?
> It's definitely a goofy, pompous, rambling letter written by someone who doesn't know what he doesn't know yet.
Here, you are quick to come to the conclusion that he is simply naieve. In that case, I too, may be naieve because I cannot quickly point out what it is that he is missing. Neither do you in your comment point it out. If you get around the language, which may seem pompous, it appears to me that this kid would actually like to know the answer to this very question that you have dodged.
I'd say to the kid: don't give up on school. There are lots of ways to continue formal education besides your current high school. Find something that works (see many ideas on this thread), part time if necessary, and do it. Yes, Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard, but he could return to Harvard if Microsoft failed.
Lots quit school for "real life", and for far worse reasons than having a substantial & profitable business, though I'd suggest there's a survivor bias to the ones you hear about - Branson, Gates etc.
Like I said, the only reason against is that you don't know what you don't know, and his parents will see real risks that he won't.
The time for an intervention was a while back, and it just doesn't seem like a terrible parental decision to throw your support behind a child with ambition and some success. (unless of course the business is propped up by parental subsidy, or favours from friends: free rent, broadband, meals etc. might have made a ramen-profitable business look like a fabulously comfortable one).
Who knows whether it's the right decision? It's a viable one while business is good. I hope his motivation stays strong for whatever comes next - whether that's expansion, a second business, college, or something else. Good luck to him.
Dropping out has a stigma, unfortunately. Homeschooling, not so much anymore. So I'd recommend he quit school to homeschool, studying mostly whatever he needs to do on a day to day basis to run his company. The end result is basically the same, and depending on where they live, the Principal may be powerless to stop the homeschooling decision. Maybe he can offer to take a class or two at junior college, or on Khan Academy to mollify his parents that he is still doing something and that their kid is not a "dropout."
If you want to let me know what state they are in I can give you a basic idea of the homeschooling regulations for that state.
His parents grew up in a very different world, and they need to understand the world has changed. Education and keeping your head down in a stable corporate job are not the ticket to prosperity anymore.
> Education and keeping your head down in a stable corporate job are not the ticket to prosperity anymore.
...are not the only ticket...
They still are and entrepreneurs are still a tiny minority. Almost everyone around you lives depending on a stable job with not that many options to go up. World is different from the HN echo chamber. Education and corporate jobs are still valid - in different ways, context and to a different degree than for the last generation - sure. But they're still valid.
The problem is that he might be a lucky winner. As per the "once - you're lucky, twice - you're good" expression. He's on a roll now, but if it all collapses (350k split to 12 employees and running costs - that's not really something to write home about), what are the chances that he'd be able to recreate the success? I don't know. Nobody knows.
He's effectively not hedging the risk of future failures.
If his current company does well, it'll be OK. But if it fails, he may end up facing more trouble than he can handle, all due to not having basic checkboxes ticked on the resume.
It depends on what he permanently cuts himself off from, which I'd recommend he not do.
He's probably a dream candidate for other hosting companies to hire. If the company fails, he can get a GED and apply to college, even very prestigious ones. (And if he qualifies as independent from his (I'm guessing upper-class) parents, he'll get a free ride.) And he will have plenty of employment while going through college.
Risk management is something that doesn't really correlate with being 15 year old. But you are at the point where you are about to discard conventional arrangements for advancing through life and try and do something very unique. The more unique it is, the higher the chances of it not working out (because otherwise everyone would've been doing it), so do not burn any bridges and do think through your plan B for the shittiest circuimstances moving forward (like the economy receeding, people not having money to pay for Minecraft servers, inflation eating up your profits, etc).
Lastly, on a more general note, the benefits of fundamental education are hard to distill in a concise form, but they are significant. Knowing how things work outside of the circle of your immediate interests, what people tried, explored and what mistakes they made... all this makes you a person who is smarter than the rest, and in the fastest way possible. You can, for example, re-invent calculus (and it's been done on more the one occassion), but that's highly inefficient way to go about it. Learning from others is the only way to get in a territory where you can truly innovate. But again if you don't see yourself ever desiring to do that, then it's hard to persuade you otherwise.
All in all - don't drop out. There's always another 350k to be earned, but there's no better time to absorb the knowledge than while you are young. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity, don't waste it.
and yet, with a CISCO certification I had no trouble getting plenty of job offers
I decided to change job tracks and focused on front end engineering and got hired at Yahoo! (after 7 rounds of grueling interviews including a coding interview).
I really think you are over stating the importance of a degree
I quite enjoyed my high school experience, but for kids who didn't, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to push them to get out as soon as possible, and maybe take community college classes for awhile until they're ready for college. Lot's of people who hate high school thrive in the more self-directed environment of college.
Some people will care about that stuff. Many won't.
I know many people in my HS enjoyed it and were challenged by the classes. Personally I took as many AP courses as I could get my hands on, but the two versions of an AP class seemed to be really slow pace and really high percentage busywork.
By the time my senior year hit, for example, I was attending just enough of my AP Calc class to stay in it and when I was there I slept. AP Calc was my favorite course in HS (because of the math, not nap time), but between the lack of content and slow pace, I couldn't stay awake. I always got points off for not showing work on tests, etc, because I did the work in my head and the time it took to write everything out wasn't worth the ~2 points it cost me.
My college experience wasn't much better. These days I assume it's because I spent the extra four years in HS. I had academic and athletic scholarships, but the classes were ridiculous and of the same HS variety. Sometimes I wonder if applying to places like Stanford would have helped the situation, but when I see the course setups I'm not so sure.
I'd agree that college is more self-directed than HS, but I don't believe it's self directed enough.
– If his business succeeds, he has a great career ahead of him.
– If his business fails, he will gain practical and useful skills & experiences that cannot be taught in school.
Assuming he is a good self-learner (it appears he is), his skills will make him marketable to a variety of Silicon Valley companies (Facebook, Google, Mozilla, etc.) Worst case, in a year or two, he'll be able to write a great essay for college applications with a reasonable chance of getting into a top notch university.
[I'm a 21yo college dropout & YC alum. Some of the things I worked on succeeded, and others failed.]
Outside of these two, there was no guidance available to me for seeking an education beyond high school. To this day, I believe that this is still the norm in rural America. If it were not for a community of educated friends, it may have been another decade of rough living for me before I went to college. This contributes to one half of my opinion: in some circumstances, the secondary school environment has nothing to offer the student. In this case, it is evidently time to "move on."
The other half of my opinion is nearly directly contradictory. It comes from the part of my life education garnered over the past 13 years of being a parent. If I try to cast my mind into the situation where, two years hence, I will have to face the decision of allowing my first born to set foot out into a world he may not be mature enough to handle, some reservations are immediately apparent. I am counting on having a few more years to teach this person to manage his life (shop for food, keep his person and effects hygenic) and to make good decisions. It would take some significant reassurance and possibly some means of monitoring his well being to provide me with the peace of mind that would result in my ultimate blessing.
In the four years you attend high school, pure academic enrichment is not (or should not be) the only skills you acquire. As a slightly older person attending college, the total lack of life preparedness exhibited by the other inhabitants of my dorm was nothing short of astonishing. I believe that my focus on getting an education allowed me to wade through the "temptations of freedom" that my these kids could not. That focus was due to having spent most of my young life dealing with parents who partied all the time. My son doesn't have that life, and so I don't trust he has that focus, either. Your friend's son may believe he does, but as the parent of a teenager (who used to be a great deal more reasonable than he has been in the past few months)... you'd have a really tough time selling me on that.
Having said all that nonsense, I would start out by making a list of the pros and cons of taking the GED and heading off to college at 15/16 and then systematically plan to address all of the cons. And make sure to roll in some means of adapting when the plans don't work.
it's like he was a piano prodigy and they were deaf... both of them were stunned to hear my assessment of his abilities and accomplishments. it was like they could suddenly hear.
it was very much an emotional and pivotal moment in the meeting. my wife was crying... and to be honest it was all i could do to not cry.
his skill set is only incidentally related to minecraft; he could make a living at any of the three major disciplines that he has demonstrable competence in. they were so sad that all this time they were missing out on how happy they could have been for him.
but I do agree, it was somewhat off-putting.
The frustrated tone of the letter suggests he thinks he can get the principal to agree with his position using reason because what other possible reason could there be for the disagreement other then lack of understanding? He's 15, can't fault him for that.
Sadly, while there are some great educators, there are some very lackluster ones as well.
Unfortunately, I had no support from anyone and ran away from home to get away. School made me want to kill myself, every day. I stopped doing it, I flunked everything, my computers at home got taken away in response. My entire life had become a prison.
Some things that have bothered me:
-Not going to college and feeling like I missed out was a big complex for a long time, feeling like I was falling behind socially and intellectually (which is true but not all bad). I was not prepared for the social skills that people develop there in the process of mentally/emotionally beating each other the head. I have had to deal with peers more socially skilled than I using tricks and experience to throw me off many times, which I see in retrospect having gained enough experience.
-Also not going to college has stunted my intellectual development. I am not as good as I could be and I know it, though I also know that I would likely have had the same social difficulties and not succeeded there anyway. Something like Khan Academy, some guidance, and some support would have helped with this, but perhaps even then I would have been a bit behind my peers earning PhDs, I would have no way to know.
-Peers often hold their degree over me, to this day. Along with this, being judged and stigmatized as "the dropout" and being treated by old peers as inferior no matter what kind of success I achieve, possibly because I am different and they are somewhat uncomfortable with that.
-The road of achievement, especially early on, without the support of a social group or educational institution that I could deal with, was probably a lot more hellish than it should have been. I was naive to a lot of things and didn't have the experience or understanding as to how to apply myself. Especially being a runaway and not being able to take care of myself, but feeling that I had no other options and had no support from anyone made me feel hopeless and desperate and gave me a huge chip on my shoulder, swinging between "I'm fucked and should just crawl in a gutter" and "I have to fight to get revenge" for half a decade+.
My perception by relation to my own experience (probably flawed somewhat) They are going to nail this kid as a cocky bullshitter. Cocky, sure, but that's because they are attacking him for being himself and it's a defensive response to that. Supporting his ego phase is going to be difficult, but try to remember that they are trying to cut him down for trying to be what he is and doing what his brain does. Defiantly labeling oneself CEO at that age and standing up for yourself aggressively is all about grasping for power where you have none.
Hastily typed, hope it is useful, obviously not complete.
my biggest fear is that his parents are gonna die on this hill and as soon as he's legally emancipated he'll sever communications.
The best thing they could have done was given me a place to Do My Thing, food, and electricity, and some warnings about bad habits and explicit and detailed examples of why they are bad. Instead I struggled and scraped and fell behind (and picked up some bad habits as a response to the harshness) just trying to get a room where I could sit and use my computer to make money, and I hated the world for it. Because the trust wasn't there and I couldn't express myself, everything they told me was in an angry and authoritative tone and my brain just blocked it out and made me more introverted.
I knew what I wanted to do and I couldn't understand how they didn't know that and support it. (I didn't express myself well and I was too weird and high tech and clever, like I get the impression this kid is.)
Also: At that age a year of school feels like a decade. The people in this thread saying "what's the big deal about another couple years" are possibly (if anything like my situation) sentencing this kid to life in hell in his eyes.
Double addendum: I get along great with my parents now and they support me entirely.
Get your GED. Find a good, large community college at 16, and begin there on a part-time schedule, perhaps 12 credits a year instead of the normal 24-36. Get straight A's or don't bother. Now, at any time in your progress towards a "2-year degree" (including after graduation), you can transfer out to a big-name university and have most of your classes count. You have an academic track record that shows you can successfully study, and an extracurricular that outweighs anyone else's. It enables you to focus your learning, remove yourself from the often harsh social environment of high school, and put off the decision about whether you'll begin a traditional college experience for years, and still be ahead of the game age-wise and credibility-wise.
There is a reasonable chance that your business will fail entirely, or be sold profitably in the next five years, and this route provides you with long-lived options, without wasting the time you're wasting now.
If he decides to go to college later on, if the company fails, then he will have an incredible admissions essay. The very best colleges look for kids who are unique and running his own business would definitely make him stand out. Have his parents read this: http://homeschooling.penelopetrunk.com/2012/04/27/top-univer...
Again, as long as he doesn't tank his grades trying to do both, the kid has nothing to lose here.
There are valid reasons to complete high school, but frankly, this would be a greater accomplishment on his resume than anything school would offer him.
If he can do this at age 15, and sustain it, he doesn't need school. He's already succeeded.
I've heard through sources that there have been various meetings conducted regarding my recent and overall academic performance at [private school]. I'd like to put some stuff on the table and get your thoughts on a few issues if you would take the time to read this. As background information I'd like you to know that I am the owner, CEO, and CTO of [hosting company], LLC a large Minecraft hosting company with over 5,000 clients and over $350,000 a year in revenue. We currently staff 12 employees and maintain a network of over 70 high powered server systems in a data-center located in [colo]. With that kept in mind I'd like to continue to discuss some issues that may have surfaced within your meetings.
Firstly I'd like to discuss the issue of character within this. As I heard you discussed this is a problem for you particularly because you feel that "If I was a good student I would simply do what is asked of me." While this may be a somewhat accurate statement, I would like you to think a little bit deeper into the fact that this is not pure rebellion, defiance, or lack of will. However, the core reason why I have not been completing a majority of assignments is due to the fact that my work is a full time job in which I'm constantly required to be present in the work environment as a crucial role to our day-to-day operations. My presence allows the company to be effective in providing our offerings as well as playing a crucial role in furthering the development of the company towards our end goals. Every minute that I'm away is time, and thus money, lost for the company.
As much as I would love to be able to complete everything that is requested of me I need to balance that out with thinking about the future of my business, and down the road, my life. There comes a time when there is simply from a mathematically validated standpoint, not enough time in the day to complete one's required duties for multiple operations (work and school) and still get a decent amount of sleep (I only get about 6 hours of sleep a night by the way.) You may also try to make the point that school should come before work, and my question to that is, why? Is it because it will prepare me academically in life? Well please refer to the below paragraph. Is it because I need to maintain social contact with people on a regular basis? Is there any reason why on-line relationships over Skype don't count when almost all elements of physical relationships are mirrored? If it's none of those what is it?
I'm going to be perfectly honest with you and I think if you keep an open mind, can understand where I'm coming from on the following issue: I think the modern school system is flawed from the perspective of someone who knows what their life's niche is. For me I already know I want to work in the server administration and networking area. Because of this my education should be tailored to what I want to learn, similar to college. The problem is, all information taught in lower level schooling is purely general information, which, up until grades 7+ is perfectly fine as it teaches you the basics of life, social skills, and various other things essential to becoming successful, however, once you get to the higher levels of general education you are met with a plethora of useless information that you will truly, never need in life. I have a general understanding of this because I'm currently living the life of a 15 year old adult, paying my bills, paying taxes, operating a business, managing employees, etc...
After doing much research (through polling a group of adults ages 25+) I have found that an overwhelming amount of them state that school is, and was, simply useless for their later life. I understand that if the information is not directly relevant to my future in life that the information can be used to expand my mind and critical thinking skills; however, I'd like you to consider that on my own time I am expanding my mind and critical thinking skills at a much more rapid rate than possible in a structured environment in which teachers have to attend to 20 or so other kids in addition to the distractions and other deterrents in those types of environments. I can go into much more detail on that but for sake of keeping this E-Mail short I won't; maybe we can have an in-person talk sometime regarding this because I hope to be understood in these matters even though I know it may go against the current prevailing thoughts on schooling.
One point I know that was brought up was regarding the fact that "Minecraft hosting won't last forever." Any reasonable person would of course agree with this statement, games are temporal, and will soon be "out of date" or "old fashioned", but what I don't think is fully understand is that we have a business structure setup to last which features many expansions planned in the near future bringing VPS Hosting, Cloud Hosting, web-hosting, voice server hosting, DayZ Hosting, among many others, and I can tell you many of these things will be around for as long as the Internet exists. For perspective, VPS and cloud hosting are the backbone of the 21st century Internet, allowing thousands of websites to operate properly with millions of visitors, and because of this is a rapidly expanding and solid market for the future.
In conclusion I would again like to remind you that anything said here was said not out of hate, or disrespect (as I have utmost respect for you and the other administrators), but rather, I'm just sharing my thoughts and opinions to get your feedback as to them. Thank you for you time. I look forward to your response whether it be in person or via E-Mail.
(P.S. I'd like to state that the validity of my sources is questionable and may not be 100% accurate. If I made any false claims please let me know.)
-- Kind Regards, [Kid] (CEO/CTO) of [hosting company]
I was pretty much this kid, or close to it, and to this day that statement is still one of the most valuable, harshest truths to me. So just challenge the kid to make it both work, run the company and finish high-school. If the kid is this smart he can do way better than running some VPS hosting company in the long run.
edit: I'm not from the US, but biscarg's comment sounds like it would be pretty good for the kid.
Don't get me wrong.. for most kids, I'd suggest going ahead and sticking around HS and finishing. But it's not very long after high-school when your high-school "credentials" become totally insignificant.
and just to give that statements some context, I've been in a position to make the initial decision on hiring at three of the last four companies I've worked for
In response, here are some "deals" that my friends cut with their teachers:
Friend 1: Instead of doing ~50 easy/medium difficulty math problems per night, he would do 3 difficult ones instead from the section.
Friend 2: He would not have to any homework for AP Physics class as long as he got an A on the previous exam.
AP Bio Teacher: Had an official rule where any student who got a 90% or higher on the previous week's exam wouldn't have to do any of the assignments for the week (though many would do the assignments anyways to learn the material).
These are some things he could look into.
I was in a very similar position as you and looking back what got me those breaks were the teachers that liked me, that liked what they saw in me and who wanted to support me.
Everything I got, I was granted. Just like in real life.
I may not have the "best" social skills, but I will say many of the teachers do like me.
they want him to conform to a system that was never designed for him
What's actually super interesting about the kid's comment is that while clearly written by a clever kid, he specifically never states that he is too smart for this, and that seems intentional.
It seems very much that the kid recognizes that the system is flawed, and not that he is too extraordinary for the system, so in my opinion, trying to appeal to him in the: "If you were that smart you would've just finished it next to all your other stuff." sort of manner will be of no effect.
Now, I don't even know if I think he should stick around through school, I likely would not have, but if that's what you want to argue to him, I'd suggest that the best way to do that is through showing him how non specialized education is helpful all through life, which I argue will be very difficult, because we have an educational system that stresses specialization over a more liberal education, and I think he recognizes that.
Schooling at the level you're at now is designed to be well-rounded, and I suspect you would be doing yourself a future disservice if you chose to completely reject it in favour of your current narrow interests.
he would be much better served reading broadly; historic fiction, science/nature periodicals, the classics etc
teachers like Tyler DeWitt are vastly underrepresented in the school system.
HOWEVER, just about universally they highly highly value their own kids getting college degrees. It is one of the most important things they believe they can give their kids. So while they skipped parts of the traditional educational system, their experience after 30 years of life has convinced them that their own kids ought to have it.
I'd suggest following hkmurakami's advice and figure out a way to bend the system to your will. It's a much more valuable lesson in the longrun.
"If you were that smart you would've just finished it next to all your other stuff."
It's not about being that smart, it's about the best use of your time. You could be the smartest person in the world, but doing hundreds of single-variable derivatives isn't going to teach you as much as moving on to multivariate calc (if you're capable of moving on).
School in the US locks you into a specific speed. If you learn more, you're punished with busywork below your current level, if you learn less, you get left behind.
The quote I'd prefer to hear your friend say is "If you were that smart why didn't you test out?" or "If you were that smart why didn't you just finish everything in a couple months?" But these are impossibilities in the current system.
The school system is akin to having a giant pile of rocks.
Which is a better use of your time if you're capable of building a crane:
A) You can either carry them one by one to where they need to go (finish hs)
B) You can build a crane that moves them faster (drop out and pursue more).
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There are many problems with how kids are taught in school. However, it's arrogant to think that you won't benefit from further instruction at 15 - regardless of how well you think you're doing.
I've known many smart autodidacts, but they're often unaware of their weaknesses. They tend to be less 'well rounded' than those with academically trained minds.
And I would agree that I'm not the best writer, but are there not people who are far worse at constructing a proper sentence that have graduated high-school AND college?
I don't think that I won't benefit from further instruction. What I'm saying is it's MORE beneficial to focus my efforts in more practical learning. I WANT to learn, but I don't want to learn stuff that will waste my time. I have nothing wrong with the subject, the problem is that we're not seeing how to apply it. I can learn math all I want through doing complex programming and creation of algorithms, however, sitting in class isn't getting me the same practical knowledge that that would.
Your situation is fascinating. You are simultaneously me (although substitute software exploit development for Minecraft hosting and subtract a lot of dollars) at Jesuit school in the '90s and, from what I can see coming, my son (now 13).
Can I offer you some more advice?
* Find some honest, worldly adults, preferably some affiliated with colleges, to lock down the advice you're getting about going GED instead of finishing school. I'm finding it jarring and disquieting; on the one hand, if the people advocating GEDs are wrong, you could be making your life much more annoying by complicating your entrance into college; on the other hand, if they're right, sticking out school is actually going to make college harder because your grades are going to suck.
* Read fiction, and get a book on writing (check out _Style: Towards Clarity And Grace_ --- it approaches writing the way K&R approaches C), and take writing seriously. You write like a very smart teenager; you don't edit, and you choose puffy words, but you also write like someone who doesn't hate writing. The world cares very much about this. Writing clearly and confidently will get you a long way in your career. You won't find many successful adults who will tell you otherwise. Participate in forums and, when you do, try to be mindful of how you're writing; there's no better way to learn than to practice, and no easier way to practice than to yell at people (gracefully) on forums.
* If you're serious today about a future in technology, learn to code. I know a lot of people who dropped out of college early for careers in systems/networking who never learned to program, and it hamstrung them later in life. High school won't teach you anything about programming, but the first few semesters of a good college CS program are a forcing function that does. Don't settle for PHP! If you're already doing this, congratulations, and keep on it. Software development is the fissile core of the whole industry.
* I'm probably the 1000th person to tell you this, but that's because it's very true: you will not necessarily want the same things when you're 30 as you do now at 15. The world is full of talented technologists now working as doctors, lawyers, accountants, and teachers. Screwing up college doesn't close many doors in technology, but it does almost everywhere else. As you get older, your degrees of freedom diminish, and obstacles you create for yourself now can become forbidding later. Keep the doors open.
Let us know how all this goes!
I was a lot like you (I'm addressing this post at the person the whole thread is about, not Thomas) for the second half of high school. I had a lot of fun hacking on various projects, was quite sure that CS was my future, and thought my classes--though I did find parts of most of them interesting--were mostly wasting my time. I talked about wanting to quit, and if I had a successful project that started bringing money in the door, I might have.
One trick is that I did care very much about my grades. So after some wavering about whether I wanted to go to college or push it off indefinitely, I decided to go to Stanford. And for reasons that I can't entirely explain, I signed up for a program where I spent freshman year reading a sizable portion of the important Western writers of the past 2500 years. And I realized that I actually really like the humanities when done well.
But I was still pretty set on a career in tech startups, took mainly CS aside from that program, and flirted with dropping out a couple times.
Now it's my junior year, and I've slowly realized that there are a lot more options out there that interest me. I gained an appreciation for the academic side of CS. And I realized that I really do like and care about thinking and writing about social issues, philosophy, and some other things.
I've pretty much determined that my dream job is professor because it would let me do everything I like doing (innovate technically, communicate, teach people, mentor people). However, I'm also probably not going to go down that track because of the hazing (grad school + difficulty of finding academic jobs afterward) and inflexibility (in the good case, you probably only have one great job offer in one place, and you'll pretty much be there for life), but if you had asked me freshman year, I would have said I had no interest in research.
I'm also not sure that I want to stay in tech forever. There are a lot of interesting problems, one person's contributions can be meaningful in some settings, and it's very flexible and well-compensated. However, a lot of what people are doing is pretty boring to me on most levels (most companies don't need innovative technology, and even most of the ones that are innovating aren't particularly doing anything for society that I care about). After a decade or two, there's a good chance I'll want to do something more interdisciplinary and with more social value. I definitely am not convinced startups are the thing for me; the vast majority of startups just seem banal at this point, though there are some gems.
This also ties into the fact that I expect the world to change a lot in my lifetime. Tech is important to me now, but as the world changes, that could change too, and the more freedom I have to do that, the happier I'll be.
I've learned a lot about what there is in the world and what I care about in the last five years thanks to being in school. And I have a great foundation that will make it easier for me to follow my interests as they develop.
As a side note, college has been an extremely important time for me as a person. I felt pretty adult as a senior in high school, and in many ways, I was; I was far more responsible and better at avoiding stupid decisions than most of my classmates. But I still had a lot of growing up to do, especially socially. I don't think college is necessarily the optimal environment for that development, but it's a very good one. Make sure that you have friends about your age, whom you frequently see in person, and spend significant time with. Get close to some of them.
Finally, writing well is extremely important and useful no matter what you do. It is worth the investment, and the earlier you invest, the more it will pay off.
I'd also like to note that I currently can program well in the following languages: PHP, JavaScript, Java, C#, Python, Lua, etc... and I most certainly enjoy doing so.
Thank you for your input.
he's solving real world problems in those languages!
No. Not because "practical learning" is bad - indeed, it's as great as you say - but because the "practical learning" that you can find for yourself is available forever. Especially if you're naturally good at it. At this point, or at any other point in your life, all you need is Ramen noodles, a cheap laptop, a solid Internet connection and a credit card.
Indeed, self-administered practical learning just gets easier with time, because you can move around and buy hardware and rent machine shops and own your own garage.
But there are things you can't easily replicate outside school, or that are a lot easier to enjoy if you have credentials and go through channels. My personal favorite example is: Science labs. Colleges have real science labs! Which are really fun for practical learning! And which you can use as a student. I mean, I won't go so far as to argue that you should spend twelve years doing a Ph.D. and a postdoc just to get your hands on the femtosecond-pulsed UV lasers, the bounteous supplies of liquid nitrogen, the fully-equipped biochemistry labs, the cell-culture hoods and incubators, the specially-bred laboratory mice, they mysterious bottles of colorful liquids, the nanotechnology laboratory, the electron microscopes, or the particle accelerators. But I did. And I don't regret any of that!
Yeah, I don't "use" my little pile of academic credentials at the moment. But there is more to life than just being "useful". Otherwise nobody would ever bother to, say, play Minecraft.
I can learn math all I want through doing complex programming and creation of algorithms...
So, are you one of those geniuses who has already aced the U.S. Mathematical Olympiad and then gotten bored with it? I have to ask, because such people exist, and if you are one I can't help you. But otherwise: Please tell me you've taken a serious high-school mathematics competition and been bored by it, because otherwise I'm not yet convinced that you know what you're missing. There is a lot of math that is not encompassed by "complex programming" or "creation of algorithms". A whole lot. More than I can understand. Not to mention the physics. Physics! In the hands of the right teacher, who is admittedly not easy to find, it's really a lot of fun.
1. What is the parents net worth?
2. Is the child a US Citizen?
3. What is the skin color/race/nationality of the child?
4. How much money does the child have in cash. What's his net worth?
5. Is his employment at this gig guaranteed for at least 5 years and is this gig going to continue his salary for 5 years?
6. Does he show any signs of burn-out? He may be wildly successful for a few years, then commit suicide because he didn't get stock options?
7. Does the child have stock options in the company and the right to liquidate the company and if so how much would get get in return?
8. Committed any felonies or gotten into trouble in younger years?
9. Does he have a drivers license?
10. Is there a Charismatic cult leader that hypnotized him into a delusional state to plant these seeds who stand to make a fortune from his quitting school?
11. What is the REAL reason for hating school?
12. Did the child write this letter or hire one of his employees to do it?
13. Are there any bullies in school that are hassling him that are prompting this? Can he get along with his peers?
14. Does he have successful mentors who will see his development through to age 18 or so?
15. Is his relationship with his parents solid? So that if he were to get into an accident and become mentally disabled that they would take care of him?
Who can predict the future of this decision? If I was the father, I'd compromise, I'd say: "If your next year in high school is Straight A's, we'll let you quit". If he wants it that bad, and he's a doozer, he'll make it happen.
I am not saying this is the best choice for you, but if you want to skip all the useless parts of high school, this is another option.
[1]: www.simons-rock.edu
The core of that argument, like this one, is that the fundamental assumptions about what the activity is providing are incorrect, and that leads to poor reasoning about the problem.
In my case the young man had made assumptions about signalling his body gave him with regard to being hungry or not as a signal of quality and/or acceptability. In the author's case the young man has conflated the value of education with the value of earning a living.
I agree with others here that if he is "that smart" he should be able to just finish up the high school curriculum and get that out of the way. I'd certainly consider home schooling him, since his business is so successful he should be able to hire himself an individual tutor, get the basics covered, get certified, and then get his degree. These folks typically deal with kids of movie stars or executives who are travelling a lot but they are out there.
If the kid is smart, and you want to reason with them, do it at the company level which he has so much of his identity invested in.
What is his gross margin? EIBTA? Net income? What are the strengths, weaknesse, opportunities, and threats for his business? What happens if Notch decides to cut off folks like him? What's the next step in his life? And the one after that. When he's dead what does his obituary say, "Man he ran the best Minecraft servers." ? He has shown that he can create a business, that is great, but does he have the stones to make bigger businesses? Or is he strictly small time, the 21st century equivalent of the guy who owns and runs the gas station on the corner his whole life? Who are his heroes? His anti-heroes?
Clearly he has had success in his goals, but he doesn't know what he doesn't know. The goal of an education is to give you the tools to attack the problem of developing knowledge when you are confronted with a lack and a need to know. Its artificial in the education system (do you really need to know about ancient history?) but the tools and techniques are widely applicable.
My eldest child is pretty smart, she basically tested out of the public high school curriculum at age 12, however most of that was due to a voracious and wide ranging reading habit fed out of a pretty strong curiosity drive. College taught her to discipline her efforts toward a specific goal. Sort of like Luke Skywalker learning that even if the force is strong in you, being unable to apply it effectively makes you weak.
The primary difference between the "we're all here together" college and doing it remotely, is the exposure to other people having similar/different challenges and meeting them around you. Since folks are rarely good at everything having people around who are good at things you aren't good at lets you learn from them, and they from you. People deal with stress, and failure, and challenge in different ways. In a college community you get to see how others do that and decide if its going to work for you. That stuff you can't get remotely and that is unfortunate.
you act like he hasn't already learned linux administration/networking/programming on his own
It reads as if you have equated skill acquisition with knowledge acquisition, can you say more about what leads you to believe those are equivalent?
if you don't think there is a metric ton of domain specific knowledge represented in what he's already doing then you may not be as familiar with the topics as you think you are or are not remembering what it took to attain that familiarity.
but i am also privy to other areas of knowledge aqusition that might identify this minor more than i fear i have already
i guess that's the difference between people that inherited knowledge (without any need of it) instead of having to arrive at it (because they were feeding themselves and their kids with it).
that kind of explains why, of the over 200 interviews i've conducted, some of the college educated "programmers" i came across seemed knowledgeable; until i made them write code that is.
thanks for solving that conundrum.
Since he is clearly intelligent and strong willed, I think the best role you can serve is as a mediator between him and the system/powers that be. Our laws generally are not designed to account for someone so young and so competent. Most adults will think he cannot possibly know what is in his own best interest and, legally, he has little right to decide for himself. Btdt, got the t-shirt. I managed to advocate for myself anyway, but it was via a form of emotional blackmail since, as a legal minor, I had no legal right to look out for my own interests. Emotional blackmail is probably not the best route to go for a budding entrepreneur. Dealmaking is a better path forward if he can get any cooperation.
You could also search for laws regarding emancipation of a minor. When I was 14, California passed laws allowing for emancipation at age 15. This means essentially claiming adult status early for purposes of signing rental agreements and other contracts. However, it is probably reserved for cases of abuse. Given his age, I wonder whose name is actually listed as legal owner of a lot of the business assets. Most businesses will not sign a contract with a minor because they legally cannot be held to it. If his parents signed for everything, he needs to keep them on his side. Until he is 18, there is a legal and practical limit to how much he can tell the adults around him to go screw themselves. (In cases of abuse, you can stretch that limit because ending up on the street may be an acceptable alternative. But that hardly seems to apply to this situation.)
If he were 18, that would be a completely different situation. But he is not. So legally he likely has no right to just do as he pleases. So if you wish to help him, you probably need to help him find a reasonable compromise which is palatable to all parties. If he really wants to be an entrepreneur, this negotiation process (in which he legally has no real say) will be an excellent advanced course in dealmaking. If he views it that way, perhaps he can view it as a challenge to relish instead of just a bunch of pointless obstacles from idiot adults. If you haven't already, you should both read "getting to yes" and "the heart and mind of the negotiator".
Of course I don't use most of that stuff in my daily life, but I'm glad I know it. And if I had gone into chemistry -- which I was seriously expecting to do as a freshman in college -- those chem classes would be something I'd be using in my daily life, of course with a lot more undergrad and grad work on top of it.
If High School weren't such a poor learning environment then maybe but this trend to saddle a student with homework so they are working on school in excess of 40hrs/week is inhuman. Most adults would be looking for new work under those conditions, but we frown on students when they don't want to put up with it. We need creative, spirited young folks, not a bunch of crushed-soul droids.
His parents are responsible for making sure he has the information he needs to make the right decision, but standing in his way won't protect him; the best thing they can do for him is stand behind and protect his decision.
I feel strongly about this because I was in the same position. At 14, after teaching myself to program for several years, I felt that school had a negative effect on my education (in fact, this was corroborated by standardized test scores). Instead of proceeding to high school, I decided to pursue college courses part-time and spend the rest of my time teaching myself to program.
This was the single best decision I've ever made for myself. I eventually started taking more courses at my own discretion, and later transferred to Berkeley to get a degree in math. Now I'm a 23-year old founder of a growing technology company backed by first-tier investors in Silicon Valley, and no one has ever asked for my high school diploma (which doesn't exist). I owe much of this to the advantage I got from the freedom to pursue to my own interests at such a young age, and having support from family to do so.
I'd be more than happy to talk to him or his parents directly if they're interested. Feel free to pass along my email: scott@deltaex.com.
If the people around hin strong arm him, give him crap, or generally disapprove of his plan to drop out, it's not going to help him (in my opinion). Should I be fortunate enough to be in his position at 15, I'd hope that the people around me would care enough to educate me about my options. This could include staying in school, pursuing school in some other capacity (child actors do it), or simply walking away. There's always the opportunity to go back later, but there's very little chance he'll learn a more valuable lesson by walking away from something he productive that he cares about towards something in which his sees little value.
I propose this. His friends and family go to work for him. They agree to help him make the business more successful. In return, he agrees to pursue a certain level of education for at least two years. Just one crazy idea.
I did not go to a particularly good high school, but I didn't think that it was entirely a waste of time. However, I had no idea what I wanted to do after finishing my schooling. This kid does. As somebody said, the successful business will catch somebody's eye in some admissions office. Hell, Alexander Hamilton was a manager rather than an owner, and Columbia was happy to take him.
I don't know this person's income, but would something like this be an option? Combined with "graduating" early?
In this case, he might be taking the initiative himself, rather than through a parent. But the mechanics seem workable, even if this is not within some established paradigm and set of expectations.
In the business world, rather than e.g. the film world, this person might be considered a "star child". Why not afford him the same opportunity that a film star would have?
I don't know the socio-economic position of this "[private school]", but this sounds as if it's in the U.S., and "private school" and some other content lead me to assume a few things: Both parents are in careers and/or otherwise too engaged to consider home schooling. There may be enough money in the family to help with private tutoring in addition to or aside from the kid's own income. (Much private schooling in the U.S. is not cheap.)
From the language used in our protagonist's letter to his principal, it appears to me that he could benefit from some additional education. At least in written English, there is room for improvement.
So... get the degree, and some additional education. But do it your way, with a concentrated curriculum and instruction that provides the most useful concentration possible while eliminating as much of the bullshit and crap as possible.
Just a suggestion for consideration.
I tried to suggest this was the stuff to look into. No one upvoted it or replied to it. It appears to have been completely ignored. But as a former homeschooling parent and former bright teen who tried to convince parents and school administrators to let me do early college, etc, I have firsthand relevant experience. Hopefully, your comment gets a little more notice than mine did. A fifteen year old simply has no legal right to tell parents and school "screw you", especially not to run his business. If it were a case of abuse and he was willing to flee to another state, he might have a bit more flexibility, though at a cost (a lot of runaways wind up prostitutes and/or drug addicts -- not normally a better alternative than putting up with parents and compulsory attendance laws). Those extremes really do not seem to have any bearing on this specific situation.
My parents wouldn't let me drop out and go to junior college, explaining that I wouldn't graduate.
Of course, they were right. I am just not good at school.
Two years later, when I did graduate, it was 1997. Within months I had a pretty decent programming job that "required" a college degree.
Nobody has every asked about my high school diploma. (I, of course, never mention it. Why would I? all the jobs I have had "require" a college degree, and I don't have one of those, either.)
Anyhow, I gave my parents shit for years about how much money I'd have made if I had another two years working during the bubble.
We are in another bubble, just like '97. If you have the opportunity to get a job now? do so. Once the bubble pops, it will be /dramatically/ more difficult to get a technical job and earn that almost inestimably valuable "first real job" experience.
You can always go back to college if you can't hack the standards after the bubble pops. (standards went /way/ up in 2001. I traded down, job-wise, but retained my pay grade and even though I was working at a less impressive company, retained a programmer/sysadmin role. I had worked hard and learned a whole lot since '97- there is no way I would have made that cut without the experience I gained in those few years.)
If I had gone to college like everyone said I ought, and gotten out in 2001? Very likely I'd have been unemployed through '06 or so. I'm saying this because one of the guys I worked with in '97... someone more experienced than me, and not significantly worse than me? He ended up making sandwiches through the early oughts. I ended up hiring him for my projects through the mid oughts; He left me for a real job again in '07, if I remember right.
I mean... there must have been some difference such that I was able to retain employment through those years and he wasn't... but he was pretty good. If he couldn't get a real job during those years, I don't think a me without experience could have either.
My point, here, is that the business cycle has a huge effect on how easy it is to find employment. It is /essential/ to take advantage of the good times in the business cycle to build experience you can use to get jobs during the bad times.
School isn't going to help him make more of himself than he has, all it will effect is his current business. With respect to his parents and school, it would be unfair, in my opinion, to stop him doing what it takes to make that an even bigger success.
His letter is inaccurate in saying education gives you nothing, I'm 18 and would disagree profusely. I've studied Computer Science for a few months after being suckered into a short lived technology business, and it's changed a lot about how I think.
However, he does come across in some respects as a smart business guy - where he discusses Minecraft hosting as a fad and tells of his longer term ambitions for that company - that's a business guy whose already made up his mind.
If this kid has a plan -- say, to get a GED, go to a trade school, and secure a decent salary, then it may not be so bad. Equally viable is if the kid has an apprenticeship lined up, with the promise of a career afterwards. On the other hand, "I am bored with school so can't I just play Halo until I can find work as a janitor" is a useless plan that will lead to a miserable life.
Nothing is black-and-white. As Sun Tzu said,
"The general who advances without coveting fame and retreats without fearing disgrace, whose only thought is to protect his country and do good service for his sovereign, is the jewel of the kingdom."
If he drops out, and gets a GED, it may not be the same straight path, but college is still there, and someone who has worked and taken care of themselves for a bit has a very different take on a college education when they perceive it as something they want and need, rather than something they are supposed to do. When he decides to go to college, it certainly won't be a four-year beery haze.
The workload is probably considerably lighter there, and he should be able to get a diploma while keeping his concern ongoing.
The business is making an OKAY income, but nothing gangbusters, even for the middle of nowhere.
I'd push for at least getting the GED though... that way, worst case, if his business ambitions don't pan out, he can always go back to college (starting at a community college if he has to, since they are often guaranteed admittance, if you have a HS diploma or GED).
Having been educated in France and lived my adult life in the US I can say the US education system has an advantage that other countries' may not have:
- In the US, one has the opportunity to get a college education at any age.
I myself recently went through this decision process (although the company I had started at 15 was different) the situation was the same, and if you would like to discuss anything feel free to email me at devon[at]{hnusername}.net
Set him free.
personally speaking i think this is a kid who has found something he would like to do and is rather good at it. without being too long winded, i think it would be best you spoke to his parents about instilling the virtue of being educated in him rather than coercing him to go to school for the sake of it. the reality is, people graduate from school and forget almost everything. but just because they have the credentials, we are somehow supposed to say they're educated. this has been true in my professional life, and not to demean anyone i know, but also in my personal life. education follows you your entire life. it never stops. school ends after four years, and college after another four. at the end of it you would have been no more enlightened about the world around you as you scramble through the transition to "adulthood" - read: getting a job and abandoning the principles that plato and cicero should have taught you, in the interest of moving on up - and if for nothing else, in most cases all that enlightenment is not enlightenment that can only be received via the blessing of the high priest of harvard. i think that should be the important thing to teach any kid, but especially this kid, and when that is learned, school becomes a mere option, rather than the necessity we all portray it to be.
for a personal background, i'm 26, now, and i actually graduated high school when i was about his age, so i understand his perspective. it was dull. i earned the best grades, but i won't deceive myself into saying i actually <i>learned</i> anything. in fact i saw school like everyone else saw school, a collection of classes that were nothing more than classes. i was so terrible and disdainful of maths and sciences that i consoled myself with the idea that they weren't important. after all, i was learning government, economics, sociology; stuff about the "real world." i could quote marx, engels, keynes, and friedman, word for word. i could tell you the difference between totalitarianism and authoritarianism. i could write long essays about the historical context of pride and prejudice. but i never understood any of it. i simply knew them, so i could pass classes very easily because tests were basically "tell me what you read in the book." it wasn't until i graduated that i came across the local public library. i picked up a random book on math and it hit me in the face like a truck. all of a sudden it all had meaning. it wasn't just a bunch of numbers that magically produce other numbers. history wasn't just a bunch of white guys killing themselves. jefferson wasn't just a hypocritical bastard who owned slaves. gradually i stopped seeing education as this prescribed list of books i should read and things i should say. it was all around me all this time. and once you know one thing, you simply want to know more. i'm sorry if it sounds a bit fruity, but it's true. and i thank my mother for not only being supportive in not forcing me to go to college to do the whole child prodigy thing, but also in reconsidering her former idea of education, which was in line with the mainstream view, and coming along with me in the educational journey. it made the world of difference being able to discuss philosophy, in earnest with someone else, rather than have it conferred down to me by some high priest. so you would imagine, it's a bit irritating to hear people talk as if school was this holy arbiter of education. with regards to this kid's parents, my personal opinion would be to engage them in discussion of what exactly education is and focus more on instilling the virtue of education and knowledge in him. present things as they are, life, rather than a series of facts that they have to learn in a building and it won't matter whether or not he was educated in a building, called school, or if he was educated in his fracking car. especially as he's 15 now, support and guidance are the best things his parents can give him. support through his business endeavors and educational endeavors and guidance for when he may seem to be going astray - which, statistically, he will :). and they can't effectively do that if they aren't clear on what exactly their son should get from an education, or even what it is. of course it will be tough, straying away from the traditional route. there is no manual, there are no prescribed books. probably everyone they know went to school and has kids who are going to school. but sometimes the road less travelled is the one that makes all the difference. i wish all parties involved good luck regardless of which road they choose
Another thing to keep in mind is that the majority of very successful tech startup founders did finish college and have some life experience. E.g. Elon Musk is a prime example - he got degrees in both Economics and Physics before going on to found Zip2, X.com (precursor to PayPal), SpaceX and Tesla Motors.
He runs the risk of burning out like an over amped/volted light bulb, and winding up in the bread line, without a high school education. He just entered the house of pain, unless his parents are very wealthy and can support him the rest of his life, do not drop out.
If he is not a US Citizen, not having a high school diploma will hurt him.
You're most likely going to be working for the rest of your waking life, five days a week, with minor breaks for vacations. Enjoy school/college while it lasts, make the most of it; there's no rush to get into work because once you get in, unless you strike it rich, there is NO getting out. Only if his prospects for striking it rich are REAL and attainable and in-the-bag, do not drop out.
The highschool/college education combo will benefit you far longer than most companies (no matter how wildly successful they are) will be around. The world is full of snakes and evil people. His performance in getting things done may be eclipsed by someone eating him for lunch, in which case an education in common sense would save him a lifetime of pain.
If he's not going to actually go to college he should set up shop on a college campus so he can use the library, etc and make some connections.