Say no to new clients: “For that reason, I’m out.” | Hacker News Reader

Say no to new clients: “For that reason, I’m out.”

menwithpens.ca

35 pointsdavidchua25 comments

I'm not so sure I agree with this reasoning. I agree with asking questions about their business and strategy because such questions can lead to interesting conversations, but to outright refuse to do someone's project because you don't think it'll work is the epitome of arrogance.

Lots of people want BS projects and lots of people also only really learn through experience. That $10k project that is "obviously doomed to fail" might give them a fairly cheap education in business that will lead them to their next, more profitable project. Or, perhaps, they'll figure out they're not getting the results they want, ask why, and make the necessary changes to make it work with that $10k thing that's been built. Not everybody is irrational or unreasonable in the face of failure. (Also, that BS project might actually succeed too.)

Bear in mind that most businesses fail, and someone's first and second businesses are even more likely to fail. Trying to save someone from failing in this way is depriving them of the experience that they need to be successful later. It's akin to trying to stop a toddler from falling but also preventing them from learning to walk. Experience is a valuable teacher and we don't need to be out trying to save the world from failure. Failure is necessary.

One more example: if I go to my hair stylist and ask for it all to be shaved off, I'd hope that he'd tell me I wouldn't look good with a buzz cut. However, if I insisted, I'd also hope that he'd do it anyway.

Perhaps the only three good reasons that spring to mind for turning away a prospect are a lack of ability or willingness to pay, an inability to complete the project, and a severe personality conflict that's going to lead to lots of drama in the working relationship.

Mostly agree. The customer is always (in their) right to be wrong. (As long as they pay for it.)

However one rule my Dad made sure to remember was that although someone deserves "a real beating" (obviously figuratively speaking here) you should always avoid being the tool used for that.

I think the part where your stylist first tries to talk you out of the (in their opinion) bad idea is the important part.

I've built plenty of things for clients that I thought were of dubious value, but I always tell them my concerns and push them to iterate through the project to avoid getting in too deep.

Sometimes, I've been wrong about the value.

And sometimes, as the post suggests, I've said no.

I don't think either is a wrong, as long as you are honest from the get go.

Do you pay your hair stylist $10k+ for creating hair that will theoretically increase your bottom line?

Will that hair project also require months of work?

If so, your hair stylist would be very, very smart to say "No, sorry," to your request, because then there will be at least one more client of his/hers out there with a negative result. Which makes the hair stylist's portfolio success rate that much lower.

And the sign of somebody who won't say "No" is the sign of somebody who's not dedicated to results. As consulting god Weinberg would put it, they'd fail the Orange Juice Test: http://blog.intercom.io/the-orange-juice-test/

If you ask me, a better metaphor would be whether a person will go out with absolutely anyone who offers them a free dinner (even if they think the potential date is dumb as a box of rocks)… And what other, later, more desirable potential dates would think of that person's choice to not exert choice.

Saying no to a customer in such circumstances - and this goes against the grain here judging by the other comments - is just fine.

If you are working on something you don't believe in you'll be working at a lower fraction of your capacity, whether you know it or not. Better to leave that job for someone who does believe in it, and who by virtue of that fact will make it a little bit more likely that the project succeeds anyway.

There is absolutely no harm in being honest, with your customer and with yourself. Working for a long time on a project you don't believe in won't have a happy ending.

Plus the ongoing psychological weight of knowing you are not doing your best work, and/or you're doing great work that is destined for the junkyard, or you're casting pearls before swine… not to mention failed projects don't look great in your portfolio.

Saying "No" is a way to honor yourself, protect yourself from hidden opportunity costs (both real & psychological), and feel good about what you're doing.

I totally disagree with this. You cannot judge the potential success of a clients idea. As stupid as it may sound. As big or small it may be. You don't know if it will succeed. Your job is to build it for them, not to judge the idea. It is their job to try and make the idea work for them. I have personally built things that sounded very stupid to begin with, and then went on to make lots of money to my client. Had I been so arrogant, I would have been the wall that kept my client from changing his/her life for the better.

One of the downsides of the tech bubble is that some programmers get a sense of entitlement because they are such a precious and valuable genius. Not really. Programmers are not more special than other professionals (or even more special than the people who pick up my trash). Don't believe the hype. You might one day find yourself working at Burger King after the bubble bursts.

The only problem is that it might be too arrogant for us developers to tell clients what will or will not work. In pre-twitter days, if a client asked me to build something like twitter, I would think he would fail. So it is like a blog but with 140 character restriction? I would also think wikipedia would not work. Why would anyone take time and effort to contribute useful information for free and how do you guarantee the integrity of the information. Of course, right now, it all makes sense. But it is very arrogant to think that you know what will succeed or fail.

I still have a problem with twitter though. Every time I think of it I start thinking what a brilliant tool it could have been if they had focused on group internal messaging etc.

Obviously I'm not their target demographic ;-)

How to, politely, say "no" to clients and remain friendly afterwards is probably one of the more useful skills I've acquired in my career.

And "stupid" clients without an obvious business plan, etc. are not the sole reason to say "no". Much more common is the client who you can work with, but it's not the best option for you or the client. Because they're looking for the lowest price, not value received. Because they're looking at something that's only 60% in your sweet-spot, and isn't interested in the other 40% of your skill set. Because they don't have the budget for your current rates. And so on.

The difference between "The Dragon's Den" and having a potential client approach you with work is that the Dragons are being asked to _partner_ with the client, not do work for them.

If a potential client come to you with a questionable business and asks you to do work for them _as an investment_, you probably should walk away. If they want to pay you, then do what you think is best.

This is a bit arrogant and misguided. As another commenter pointed out, if you go to a hair dresser, you do get suggestions about what will look good on you, but the hair dresser won't refuse service if you go against the advice. As a developer, you can pick and choose your projects. If you don't want to work on ideas you think aren't good enough, cool; but don't make generalizations. Doing paid work for someone isn't the same as being a co-founder(as in investing or working for free).

When Britney Spears shaved off all of her hair herself, it was because the hairdresser flat-out refused to do it for her.

And on the other hand, there are all my hairdressers over the years who asked me what I wanted and then did whatever it was that wasn't like anything I wanted.

So, flipping the allegory now, if a client comes to me and asks me to develop a Twitter, would it be OK if I deliver an eBay instead?

My conclusion is that it's probably time to treat our hairdressers like they're developers and instead of just saying "yeah, that's perfect" when we really hate the cut, tell them that we are not happy with the results and that we will be back once the hair grows for another iteration, and that we'll pay once we can go live with the haircut as we specified it.

Either that, or stop using irrelevant allegories.

The author should clarify whether he's acting in the role of a consultant to his client or a contractor for them. The questions he's raising definitely signal "consultant" but his price signals "contractor". The expertise he thinks he's being hired for is "make my project successful" (consultant) but is probably "build this thing for me" (contractor).

Consultant's generally have to spend a lot of time persuading their customers to follow their advice, and charge high rates to make sure that they do. Contractors focus more on efficient delivery of their work, and let the customer sort out what to do with it.

Note that I'm using the titles consultant and contractor in their extremes. Most people who have one of these titles actually do both jobs during the course of a customer engagement. It helps to be aware of which one you're doing when you're doing it, though.

So a hypothetical scenario: a client says to me "I've got this great idea to compete with Facebook by using red navbars instead of blue". Should I refuse the job because their idea won't work?

I would clarify what I can and can't do for them: "I can build a working product that will scale to 10,000 concurrent users assuming you're prepared to pay $5K per month in hosting costs. I can't deliver millions of users, protection from patent infringements, etc."

Also, if I think the idea is going nowhere, I would be careful about being paid up front.

If their happy with my terms, I'm happy to receive their money.

I used to do this a lot more. However, at some point I realized I would certainly have shot down twitter. Since then I've hopefully been less arrogant.

Exactly. If you've politely let the client know you're not convinced by the business model, the client still wants the work done, and you need the work, why refuse?

Horsepucky. Most of my clients are entrepreneurs. Many fail. That's just the way it goes. But of all my client projects, the one that I was most sure was a total waste of time and effort is the one that has been the most successful.

If I were so good as to be able to tell which ideas are going to succeed as products, I'd be sitting next to Mark Cuban on Shark Tank and making fun of how poor he is. Until I gain that expertise, I think I'm going to let my clients follow their dreams and help them out as much as I can.

A lot of the books on consulting I read emphasized client at best in the long run can pay only proportional to the actual value of the engagement. And clients are often coming to you for advice beyond the step they are paying you for. So I like the article, there really is no reason not to tell the client not to pay for pursuing what you feel is a bad idea. It is certainly up to the client to make the final determination, but you have to be honest and very generous in communication.

I'm a developer, not a business analyst. My perspective on the veracity of an idea is pretty irrelevant and in most cases ignorant.

I appreciate the writeup. Have a close friend trying to push a new business idea on me that I am positive she is not ready for. Would be great to cash a big check, but not worth being blamed for the buz failure when her motivation fizzles.

Isn't this similar to the car salesman interviewing me about how I will drive, who I will give a ride to etc. and then refusing to sell me the car? Doesn't sound like a great strategy for the seller. How about just sell the car?

It is usually my luck that I get approached by big vision sales types doing a project that requires some niche of what I do well. It is the distraction of the additional project that degrades the quality my work. Have to say no.

I run a small web agency and would like to see similar thoughts, issues with client relationship, building trust, etc. Are there nice blogs/articles that can help?

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