Surface Dogged by Low Sales, High Returns | Hacker News Reader

Surface Dogged by Low Sales, High Returns

winsupersite.com

We demo'd a surface at work, and these were my takeaways:

1) The UI is incredibly confusing. It, again, feels like it's just a windows machine with some goofy /thing/ bolted to the top of it. It reminds me of windows media center.

2) At least the one we got was really heavy. Heavier than a macbook air, which is a "real" computer.

3) We all-too-frequently seemed to get dumped back into a standard windows desktop with a startbutton and everything...which would be great, if it functioned that way. All I wanted to do was create a PPTP connection on the thing, but absolutely couldn't figure out how to make that happen.

I am fairly far from an apple fan, but the reason that the iPad has been so successful is that apple designed it from the beginning to be a new device with new UI paradigms.

Android did the same.

Microsoft, at least from the experience I got with surface, absolutely did not, which is sad, because they're easily poised to be able to dominate tablets.

The "holy shit" dream scenario that I have, and I think it's shared by a lot of tablet users, is a tablet as a detachable auxiliary monitor that I can dock applications into.

If I drag, for example, a browser window over to my surface monitor, that surface monitor should be able to get picked up and go with me, and then I should be able to dock that back into my desktop and go back to working there.

MS can only dominate tablets by upsetting their enterprise segments.

Microsoft's personal computing empire is built not directly on Windows and Office, but on the million little customizations and plugins that people build on top of them. That's where their lock-in comes from these days.

If they can't put that platform on the new hot computing hardware, their advantage is gone. New people buying a hypothetical "touch first" MS tablet would not only be free to choose other applications than Office, but their enterprises would be forced to rewrite their MS-locked solutions. Thus making it easier and easier for IT groups to push alternate desktop and server platforms.

If Outlook is reduced to just-another-mail client, and the workflow/management 'applications' built on top of it have to be serviced elsewhere, you might as well let employees choose mac or linux machines. And you may not even be able to justify Exchange itself after a few years of that.

A couple of notes to your points ...

2.) There are two Surface models, one is the Surface RT (which this article is talking about) and the other is the yet to be released Surface Pro.

The Surface RT is slightly heaving than the latest generate iPad.

The Surface Pro is supposed to be 2 lbs., which is lighter than the smallest Macbook Air and with the exception of form factor, it is every bit a real computer as is the Macbook Air.

3.) There is no start button in Windows 8 or Windows RT, so I don't know what device you were demo'ing.

I appreciate your reasoned post about the Surface: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5146663 A couple clarifications to highlight how the jury is still out on this device and its long-term impact on the market.

> 2.) The Surface RT is slightly heaving than the latest generate iPad... The Surface Pro is supposed to be 2 lbs.,

I had the Surface RT (with touch keyboard) in one hand and my MacBook Air in the other hand. The MacBook Air felt lighter. I did the same thing with a Surface Pro I wasn't supposed to see on a different occasion; the MacBook Air still felt lighter. It could be the Surface Pro I saw was a hardware prototype.

Weight doesn't seem like the Surface's major advantage.

> 3) There is no start button in Windows 8 or Windows RT

You're right that there isn't a start menu in desktop mode (unless someone installs the popular apps that put it back). However, there is a hardware start button on the surface RT I saw... and I did hit it quite often when holding it in landscape. Somehow my hand just wanted to hold the device in the middle from below (perhaps because it's easier to balance? Torsion is heavy?) and got tired much quicker when holding on one side.

The weight of the Surface RT and Surface are lighter than the Macbook Air 11 inch by .88 pounds and .38 pounds respectively. The Surface was engineered to equally distribute the weight so that it even feels lighter than it actually is.

How heavy is the pro keyboard attachment? More than .38 lbs?

About that. A Surface Pro with the Type Cover should be both thinner and lighter than the smallest MacBook Air. Exactly how many hundredths of a pound lighter isn't yet known since no review units were sent out and the Surface Pro website says "under 2 pounds" for the device.

You're right! There is no start button, this is my mistake.

The desktop looks like this: http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2012/11/Surf...

My speculation is that MSFT couldn't get all of the desktopy things to the non-desktopy world, and had to compromise by leaving things (like setting up a pptp connection) to the old control panel. My guess is that by the next release we'll see the desktop deprecated on RT devices.

No, the desktop is needed to run Microsoft Office.

According to http://blogs.msdn.com/b/microsoft_press/archive/2012/10/29/f... on p.36, ipc between apps is blocked for Win 8 Store apps. If this is required by an application, you have to run it in the desktop. Deprecating the desktop won't be simple if such ipc is integral to how the applications function.

Hmm..that's weird. Surface RT is 1.5lbs and Surface Pro (yet to release) is 2 lbs[0]. Both versions (11, 13 inch) of Macbook Air are more than 2lbs[1].

[0] http://www.microsoft.com/Surface/en-US/surface-with-windows-... [1] http://www.apple.com/macbookair/specs.html

EDIT: Those are without the keyboard. Depending on the keyboard, I can see how Surface might have been slightly heavier.

I have a Surface RT. It was a gift. I also have an iPad, that I paid for. I use both quite often.

Is it a good device ? Yes, I think so. Would I recommend the current Surface RT ? No, not yet anyway.

Here are my key issues:

a.) The app store has to get better. I know it has a full featured browser (spare the IE jokes), so there isn't a need for as many apps as a traditional tablet, but I still think the RT's usage is set up for touch as often as possible and using IE10 in desktop mode just don't cut it for touch usage.

b.)It can stand to be a bit cheaper (at least bundle in the keyboard for $50.00)

c.) MS needs to get their act together because the built in apps are very bare bones and in fact are at times worse than the apps they replaced (i.e. Xbox Music vs Zune)

d.)in terms of hardware, the only real issues I have would be the screen (quality is great, but I think the next iteration should bump up the resolution); and the cameras which are god awful.

All in all, despite the criticism, I like the direction Microsoft has taken with Windows 8 and the Surface line. In typical Microsoft fashion, it would have helped if the different divisions had got their act together, so they could have released a more refined, coherent product.

It always baffles me when I see incredulous posts on Hacker News that can't seem to grasp the benefits of a device like the Surface RT or the Pro. I think devices similar to the Surface Pro are the future of mass computing.

How do you find office on RT? It's unusable for me. Too slow.

Fortunately it's not my machine :)

Have you already installed the Office RTM update? It's a bit better after the update.

That update is particularly hard to find - you have to dig several windows deep into the control panel in desktop mode ... it's one of those inexplicable things that just dumbfounds me - they leave a pre-release version of Office on the tablets and then almost guarantee nobody will install the proper version by making the update UI impossible to find.

seriously? you can just type windows update (search will open for you) then select it to install - i don't know how it's too complicated. Especially since most people use windows already.

No, typing Windows Update gets you to the updates for the tablet, which do not include Office. To update Office you go through the control panel see -

http://winsupersite.com/article/windows8/microsoft-surface-u...

Perhaps it has changed, but this is how it was 3 weeks ago when I updated the tablet I had.

This is what I experienced as well.

I've updated it now - it's still a dog, even compared to my 5 year old ThinkPad...

I have a Surface RT. Unfortunately I couldn't return it because it was outside the return window and Microsoft's return policy was rather unforgiving. Too late now.

I actually like the thing.

Pros: - The Type Cover is awesome. It's not bad typing on it and the keys are spaced enough where you don't feel cramped. The track pad works well with this too. - There are enough built in apps to get stuff done that most people need to do (calendar, email, document creation, and web browsing). - Hardware wise it is heavy but solidly built. It really looks nice and the kickstand isn't as bad as I thought it would be.

Cons: - Someone mentioned that the aspect ratio of the screen makes it difficult to read documents sometimes. - Windows 8 has a steep learning curve. You won't be able to pick it up and immediately be productive with it like you would an iPad. However once you get used to the gestures you will be comfortable on any Windows 8 device. - For some reason (and this was true with my Windows Phone 7 HTC Arrive) apps take a long time to download data from the internet. You'll frequently be waiting on an app to connect to the internet to use things like the People Hub to see status updates. - Apps. This is a big one. There are few big name apps on there. Was hoping for Spotify, Facebook, and Twitter individual apps. - The name. They dropped the ball on a simple product naming strategy.

I've seen a handful of Surfaces around town, but I live in Seattle and every Microsoft employee got one for free.

It's a nice device in theory: the build quality is significantly higher than your average PC, but the lack of apps is, I think, a killer. Almost no one understands the difference between Windows and Windows RT, nor understands that this means you won't be able to run Steam, PrintShop Pro, that crappy VB6 app that IT built when Clinton was President, or any other app that's run on Windows for the past 20+ years.

Plus, the other thing that boggles my mind is that it is not a laptop. You literally cannot use it on your lap with either of the keyboard covers. It is either an overly long tablet, or a desktop machine.

edit: I'm impressed therobot24 can get their Surface to balance properly on their legs. I tried this out and couldn't make it happen in a way that I thought would be safe. Maybe I underestimated the strength of the magnets between the keyboard and device.

I disagree with the 2nd part - I use the surface on my lap all the time - rather 90% of my usage is in bed or on the couch/recliner, each time with the kickstand out and using the type keyboard. I don't see why it didn't work for you, the only problem I can even think of is that sometimes i'm laying down and because i'm looking under my glasses I have trouble reading the screen.

Do you sit with your legs together so you can support the device with two points of contact, or do you manage to balance the whole thing on one thigh? The problem with the kickstand/keyboard setup is that the keyboard isn't rigidly attached to the screen. You can use force on the palm rests of a laptop to support it in a wide variety of positions that seems really awkward with the Surface.

legs together, or it's on my chest while i'm lying down.

i kind of like that it isn't rigidly attached because my blanket or legs for that matter aren't exactly an even surface and instead of the device losing balance the keyboard leans a bit left or right.

Whenever I use my laptop not on a desk, I balance it on one knee (I don't like sitting with my legs pressed together), which seems hard to do with the Surface. I also balance it on a couch armrest or a pillow in bed. The rigid base let's me use my hands on the keyboard to steady the device even when it's balancing with only one point of contact at the bottom.

I returned the Surface I bought. I hardly ever return things.

I thought the screen too tall when web surfing in portrait mode. And I had an overall "meh" feel towards the hardware that I knew would have me leaving it in the drawer, collecting dust.

Sent from my iPad

Genuine question:

Did you get the iPad before or after the Surface?

For the life of me I can't understand why someone would want both products. (And, between the two of them, I'd personally choose the iPad.)

> "For the life of me I can't understand why someone would want both products"

You've never met a gadget-hound?

I'm not saying those people don't exist -- I just don't know why they do. :)

I'm not in that demographic, but it's easy for me to imagine a techie who just likes to be the person in the room who has an informed opinion when the subject of available tablets comes up. For devices that have decent return policies or retain their resale value, there's minimal risk other than one's time investment.

Its hard to push the envelope. I'm impressed that Microsoft didn't push out a 'me too' product, I wasn't impressed with their ability to 'step outside their comfort zone.'

That said, the amount of experimentation that is going on these days reminds me of the early personal computer days and I find that a lot of fun. Its too bad Microsoft didn't hit one out of the park[1] but they've got room to continue.

[1] Baseball metaphor for scoring a home run, also reading the Palm story and how they went from 'juggernaut' to 'irrelevant' in 36 months was pretty sobering.

I was working out what tablet to get- the Surface was up there, but in the end I went with an Asus Transformer tablet. It has it's own infuriating features (incredibly slow IO performance, for one) but I do feel like Android will be a full OS before Windows 8 is a mobile one.

The Pro version is what I think a lot of people are waiting for. The app market is still to small for the locked down arm version to be useful. Obviously the market is getting better but it still has a long way to go.

I don't think the $900 tablet that makes you pay for 64 GB of storage, but only allows you to use 23 GB is really what people are waiting for.

So put a 64gb SD card in there for 50 bucks. It's not an Apple product.

With the keyboard the Surface Pro is already more expensive than the cheapest Macbook Air.

And they both have their strengths and weaknesses. What's your point? Or is this just blind hatred for a device that hasn't even launched yet?

Is it really hard to believe that rational people can see the Surface Pro as a severely compromised device just based on the specifications? Surface Pro enthusiasts are psyched about the Ivy Bridge CPU and real Windows 8, while detractors are skeptical about the severe compromises in the design: 33% heavier than an iPad with half the battery life and a small screen and pathetic keyboard/trackpad story relative to a real ultrabook.

The enthusiasts could be right, it could end up being a "no compromises" hit of a device. But my money is with the detractors. I think it makes too many compromises relative to a real tablet and a real ultrabook to be a successful device that convinces people to consolidate both.

A lot of people wrote off the iPad, and thrn 7" tablets based purely on specifications, and look how they turned out.

There is an awful lot of negativity around the Surface Pro from some people, and its pretty obvious a lot of it is purely because its a Microsoft product. I think we should at least wait until the damn thing has launched before we we come to any conclusions about it.

> A lot of people wrote off the iPad

There was a lot of negativity about the iPad, and people were wrong. It turned out that multi-touch was a total game changer for the tablet form factor, and people didn't see it coming.

> There is an awful lot of negativity around the Surface Pro from some people, and its pretty obvious a lot of it is purely because its a Microsoft product.

I don't think it's "obvious" at all. Microsoft is launching a 2 pound tablet with 4-5 hour battery life at a $900 price point. You don't have to dislike Microsoft to think that the "but you can run Visual Studio on it!" angle is just going to go over peoples' heads and the market will pass on the device.

Especially considering the lack of "game changer" as existed in the iPad. Is the weight reduction from 3-3.5 pounds as with the previous Windows tablets to 2 pounds (at the cost of battery life and a real keyboard) going to be that game changer? I think you have to really be rooting for MS to think that is the case.

If you don't think full Windows 8 with full Office on a tablet in that form factor isn't a potential game changer for enterprise, you're insane.

> There was a lot of negativity about the iPad, but people were wrong.

Exactly. So just like with the iPad, don't you think we should wait until people actually use this potentially game changing device to find out if it is a flop or a game changer?

The reason why I say its obvious that many people are dismissing this device because its from Microsoft is that I've seen a lot of comments that say "Its Microsoft, and Microdoft always [insert sterotype here]". Im not saying everyone is doing that, but there's certainly a big element of it.

> If you don't think full Windows 8 with full Office on a tablet in that form factor isn't a potential game changer for enterprise, you're insane.

I think full Office in a tablet form factor is potentially a game changer, but that's exactly what Surface RT offers and look how well it's selling.

I don't think full Windows in a tablet form factor is otherwise attractive. Aside from a small niche of people, nobody wants to run non-touch optimized legacy Windows apps on a 10" screen. Microsoft has been peddling the stylus/tablet shtick for almost a decade now and it just hasn't been taking off. It's not something people want.

Microsoft made a huge mistake by releasing two different versions of Surface. They should have put all their eggs in the "Office on a tablet" basket, and released Surface RT with a high-res screen and Clovertrail processor at the $500-$600 price point, with a perfect, fully touch-optimized copy of Office ready to go. By sandbagging Surface RT they released on product without features people want (high-res screen, fast performance), and one product with features nobody wants (aside from a few nerds who think they're going to run CAD apps, nobody needs Ivy Bridge on a tablet).

With a keyboard it's still lighter than the smallest MacBook Air. You may be right about the battery life though.

I find the Macbook Air comparisons absolutely ridiculous. Without a real keyboard and real trackpad, the Surface is absolutely not a Macbook Air competitor. Ever read a laptop review? They eviscerate products for having far better keyboards/trackpads than the Type Cover.

It's 100% better than the iPad's nonexistent keyboard.

"Surface Pro makes for a bad tablet because it has short battery life, is too heavy, and is far too expensive" -> "But it's actually an ultrabook, compare to the Macbook Air"

"Surface Pro makes for a bad ultrabook because it has a crappy keyboard with a tiny track pad" -> "But it's a tablet, with a 100% better keyboard than the iPad's"

The Surface Pro is going to be the opposite of a "no compromises" product. It's going to be a crappy tablet and a crappy laptop in one device.

Yup. No point in getting the PCjr version of Windows Surface.

> The Pro version is what I think a lot of people are waiting for

Yes, and "waiting" is the operative word. I think in the end the split release has been a big problem for Microsoft. So many people have held off buying an RT tablet simply because they want to "see" a pro version before purchasing. Even if what they actually would buy is RT, they still wait just to be sure. And now the hype is gone and the momentum is dead, a slew of new and better spec'd products is arriving - and a big window of opportunity is gone.

Perhaps they shipped them with only 23 gigs of free space knowing they would be returned long before anyone could use up that space.

I will not be getting a surface. I took a borrowed one home to show my wife, she hated it. She wanted the interface switched around since she's left handed, charms on the left and swipe right for more pages, I couldn't figure out how to do it, but I didn't look that hard.

I'm also forbidden from installing Windows 8 on her laptop and the games machine.

Personally I don't like how I need to be connected to the cloud all the time to do anything.

How many MS products sell well in their first edition? Besides Kinect? I remember when Honeycomb was first out and all anyone could talk about was channel stuffing and how there wasn't a tablet market, there was an iPad market. A bit lower on that sites newsfeed is a note that the iPad dropped below 50% in the quarter they launched two new tablets.

> How many MS products sell well in their first edition?

Not very many MS products sell well regardless of version number. Outside of Office and Windows MS struggles, and the only consumer success they have had has been with the XBox. Their other initiatives -- Zune, Windows Phone, Kin, etc. -- have all struggled despite sustained efforts from Redmond.

Microsoft has entered a field that already has established players -- Apple and Samsung -- who are on the 3rd+ generation of their devices, and who have greatly refined them over time. Microsoft has put out a device that is first-gen. This is woefully insufficient to make a dent, long-term or short.

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that the Surface* tablets will eventually suffer a fate similar to the Zune. I also don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that Microsoft has shown that it cannot compete in the consumer space.

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