Comment by babarock | Hacker News Reader

Comment by babarock | Hacker News Reader

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Very good points!

>> it does not see a line between NGOs, the NYT/WSJ, and the US government.

Aren't we all doing the same mistake when we refer to them? All we know is that the attacks came from China, so we safely assume it came from the Government? Why is it that each time something comes from China (a country with approximately 5 time more people than the US - source Wikipedia) we blame their government and treat it as a declaration of war (or, with less exaggeration, a political move)? Is it possible that this enormous gigantic human honeycomb has, say, organizations, corporations, competitors, God-knows-what-which-isn't-their-government?

The western media have created this weird image of China and ... something doesn't add up. I've never been there and I hope I'll get the chance some day, but I can't help but feel that "someone" (feel free to replace this word with the antagonists of your favorite conspiracy theory) is trying to shove down our throat that China is a menace.

That being said, I agree with your analysis. The Chinese government has seen what happened in the Arab world and it knows that the US constantly needs an enemy. It probably does feel threatened.

I've been there. I spent 6 months last year.

What you might not understand is that the Chinese government has its hands in every corporation, organization, competitor, etc.

You might have false assumptions coming from the US system, where corporations and government are separate entities. They even sue one another at times.

In China, large corporations are overseen by the government. The government funds them, decides what they can and cannot do, and decides which corporations will succeed. You cannot build a search engine or social network right now, unless you pull a political coup, because the government controls which companies succeed. Baidu and Tencent are the "blessed children" for the time being.

Within the government, China is run by various clans, continually vying for power in the Communist Party. It's easiest to build a large company by having a family member in the upper echelon of the party, to push things through.

Everything is connected to the government in China. It's in your company's interest to keep the party in power, because the corrupt politicians keep you in business. It's in your wealthy family's interest to keep the government in power, because they keep you wealthy. It's a giant corrupt system, keeping itself in place.

Most likely, these attacks were actually executed by some low-level hackers somewhere. But most certainly, someone in the government has something to do with their funding, organization, or guidance.

"Government" is not one cohesive entity, certainly not in a country as big as China. Sure, there might be some rogue actors sympathetic to such attacks. But that doesn't imply that "Chinese government" in general is supportive of such acts, just like a few corruption scandals do not imply that entire US government is corrupt.

But for each scandal we need to re-evaluate the prior.

I'm irritated that you post this as if presupposing that the US government is not corrupt. I know you are factually correct, but the connotation bothers me.

When they failed to stop SOPA of their own accord, I realized that the majority are either incompetent or corrupt.

Well, my main point was about China and mentioned US govt just as an example. If you don't like that example, how about: "Its wrong to call a corporation corrupt just because a few mid-level employees go rogue"

>> What you might not understand is that the Chinese government has its hands in every corporation, organization, competitor, etc.

Yes, this is the point. Being a 30-year-old Chinese, I've already known under a dictatorship almost everything is controlled by gov. Want to give birth to a child? need a permit (or your kid won't have ID nor social security); want to start up your own NGO? need a extremely complex license which is designed to scare you away; want to publish a book? need a license and it will be censored or even be banned; want to form a street demonstration? almost impossible.

I think for a dictator, he needs a system to restrain the free flow of people and information (a good example, North Korea), to do this the gov uses its power/money/people to reach out as far as possible into every corner of social and personal lives. It wants to know everything and wants to control everything (whether it can do is another story).

I cannot say I have any evidences to prove a sophisticated operation like this can only be done by gov, but I believe only gov or gov sponsored organizations can do this.

> Aren't we all doing the same mistake when we refer to them? All we know is that the attacks came from China, so we safely assume it came from the Government?

I think the reason they see all of our institutions as one head of the same beast is that in China things really do work that way.

Of course, as parent points out, it's not completely false to see the United States that way, although our institutions collaborate in a more anarchic and haphazard fashion than the Chinese leadership may realize.

China pushes an alternative world view[0] to the US, it doesn't involve individual rights, and free markets. It seems the majority in the west (primarily the U.S) view this as a 'menace' or a 'threat' to their way of life... hence the constant propaganda.

EDIT: Just in response to the down votes, I thought maybe it was due to no citation.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_market_economy

On every parametric cultural ontology I've seen the U.S. comes out at the top for individualism, e.g. Hoftstede's IDV: {US, 91; China, 20} [1]. This is why we believe in free speech, even if it's hateful speech, to a level alarming to the rest of the world. As Americans we are likely to see society as a composition of individuals than a cohesive system, or of individuals as points on the fabric of society.

[1] http://geert-hofstede.com/united-states.html

Right, that's exactly the other citation I needed.

I think that explains why the US is so hostile to the activities of china (and vice versa)

The giant honeycomb is (supposedly) tucked away inside the Great Firewall.

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