Comment by gtr32x | Hacker News Reader

Comment by gtr32x | Hacker News Reader

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First I would like to say I am not in support of underage workers, I would never be. However, if we look at the realistic situations in certain parts of the globe, especially China, sometimes it is not always such a simple situation that we allow these underage workers to work.

In some far far away frugal rural land, a family is struggling financially. Their 14 year old son was not able to go to school, neither was there enough food to be fed to him. The news hit that there's a plant that's openly hiring workers without age restriction. The seemingly insignificant pay in the western's eyes will be a huge help to the family's financial in the remote rural China. After all, it's much better to work at such places than some coal mine that severely underpays.

Depending on where you are born from, some kids are meant to grow up faster than others. Some kids just cannot afford a normal education like everybody else should. It's not a fair world and it never will be. Is it fair for the kids? No it's not, but what's their best option?

Of course, not all situations are like this, but for situations where underage workers are actually working, there is a strong trend that this may possibly be the case. After all, who in the right mind would send their child to work at such an early age is they don't have to? Who doesn't want to live a good life? Remember Li Ka-Ching? He started working at a young age of 15 at a watch shop. See where he is at today?

Once again, I am not saying that education isn't important, I believe it is. However, under so many unique circumstances, it isn't always the most viable path one goes through.

I don't support underage workers, this comment isn't meant to bring to justice to the underage worker hiring practices in China. But it just pains me to see people generalize that the goal is to 'help' underage workers. The situation isn't the same in the West, hence why we think like that. It's a well wish and a prospect to help the country though.

If you draw a box around labour and management and compute the relative bargaining power of each group, child labour worsens the bargaining position of labour (by increasing supply). It is in the collective interests of China's poor (children and adults alike) to see child labour ended.

What you have noticed is something completely different: it may be advantageous for an individual family to send their child to work.

Restrictions on child labour put the system out of Nash equilibrium but they perform better globally with respect to helping the poor. This paradox manifests itself in many places; I suspect, given that this is Hacker News, that you may be familiar with a few of them already.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess%27s_paradox

The critical conclusion that free markets search for nash equilibria but NOT global optima is highly relevant to fiscal philosophy and entrepreneurship.

Then let me say that I am in support of underage workers.

The idea that preventing children to work in these factories helps the children is ill-conceived, as you pointed out. If Apple wanted to help these children, it could have required better working conditions or better pay, but not letting them work doesn't achieve the goal.

These kids won't just say "alright let's go to school then" when they can't work anymore.

Not in the case of firing the company outright but the article clearly illustrates what happens to the children these companies employ against contract terms:

>Apple requires its suppliers to return the workers back to a school chosen by the family and finance their education. "In addition, the children must continue to receive income matching what they received when they were employed. We also follow up regularly to ensure that the children remain in school and that the suppliers continue to uphold their financial commitment," wrote Apple in its latest report.

Tough luck for those children who didn't already work there.

^This sums up the situation pretty well.

Trying to do good does have unintended consequences. If pressure works, it will mean that underage workers will have one fewer avenue towards self-sustenance, or ability to help their destitute families. If I were underage I would want the option to work at a factory rather than combing the garbage dumps ofr scraps --at least there is a future on a factory floor, for the time being.

By definition any company hiring children in China is doing it illegally. By definition any company hiring children in China and working for Apple is doing it (one hopes) in secret and without Apple's consent. Given those two premises, it's not hard to extrapolate that said company is unlikely to place a high priority on avoiding inhumane treatment of said children.

Child labor and humane treatment of workers do not go hand in hand. After all, if you are paying fair wages and have good working conditions, why would you choose to hire children instead of adults?

> After all, who in the right mind would send their child to work at such an early age is they don't have to?

Many people. You don't think any child is working because her parents ignorantly don't see any value in an education? Your view that parents are universally well-intentioned and know how to make the right choices for their children is as naive as the view that no child would be better off working than going to school. Unless you think China has the capacity to inspect every home to make an individual determination of a child's right to work, I think most of us prefer it be universally banned than universally allowed.

This isn't about a general ban of child labor but about removing one option for children to work. One could try to argue for a general ban, but that is a different issue.

What? Child labor is already generally banned in China. I just argued that giving money to a company that is secretly, illegally partaking in child labor is giving money (and therefore encouragement) to a company that is likely engaging in inhumane labor practices.

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