Ask HN: Have You Ever Lived in the Third World? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Have You Ever Lived in the Third World?

23 pointstokenadult31 comments

I suppose every participant on Hacker News must have Internet access to participate at all. But I'm aware that some of us in our community live right now in countries that have limited economic development, so you have a different perspective on issues from the majority (?) here. I was born and grew up in the United States, and live in the United States now, but thirty years ago I lived in one Third World country (Taiwan), and visited another (China, then much poorer than Taiwan), and that experience has stayed with me as a reality check on my usually American perspective on the world. I'm sure many people here have lived in more than one country, and it would be helpful to know if you have seen the Third World up close.

What has been your experience? Where have you lived that is part of the Third World, or was part of it when you lived there? What can other Hacker News participants learn from daily life in the Third World? What Third World problems are important for hackers to attempt to solve? I'd be delighted to hear what we can learn from your experiences.

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I grew up in Swaziland (similar size to New Jersey, population back then of 700k). We didn't get TV until my teens. Once we did get it it felt connected. What many people do not know is that the price of TV shows is based on country population and prosperity, so we could see British and US shows as they cost the broadcaster virtually nothing.

Communication with family (all over the world) was via snail mail, and as a kid typically consisted of letters thanking for birthday/xmas presents. In person visits would be every 3 years or so. We were on a shared phone line (two longs, two shorts) until getting direct dial in the mid 80's. The shared phone line was a two digit number. The direct dial was five digits with no area codes. Contrast this with instantaneous Skype now.

Techie goods as in the rest of the world were available (eg Atari 2600, Walkman, VCRs, computers) but were considerably more expensive and harder to afford. I was somewhat fortunate in that an American benefactor donated 15 Apple II computers to my high school in 1983, providing we learned Logo. Later in the 80s my dad bought me a copy of Borland's Turbo C which was very expensive but worth it. We also had a Sinclair Spectrum, but could only afford the 16kb version. You would devour every bit of printed documentation, read magazines and books from cover to cover several times over etc to make sure you got maximum value.

In general the main difference to now and the UK/US was self reliance. You had to be able to solve issues because no one else could do it for you. For example you had to be able to fix your own vehicles (or at least limp them back). You would need to be able to fix anything that broke, possibly making replacement parts yourself. You'd need to improvise. Almost everyone was their own McGyver!

And a random story for you. A tropical storm went through the country and power was out for 3 days. A friend had a video tape he rented in a player when that happened. You can't eject video tapes unless you have power. The video store wanted to charge a late fee despite the fact that they wouldn't be able to rent the tape out to anyone else.

I currently live in Santiago, Chile, which to my opinion isn't a third world situation... but I was born and lived in Tucumán, Argentina, one of the poorest parts of the country, and a place I usually return to. On the other end of the scale, I've lived in the Netherlands, and I've got family in Switzerland.

One of the most importants things you realize when living in the third world, is that happiness is really something that doesn't come with money or luxury. People in Tucumán are usually happier than the guys I've known in Chile, even though Chile is usually presented as one of the most succesful Latin American economies.

The problem with Chile is that growth is only measured by GDP growth, and inequality and quality of life isn't really taken into account. As a country, it is trying to "fake" the being a first world country via metrics, instead of via quality of life. Even though Chile's economy is better rated than Argentina's, public services: education, transport, health, etc. are usually better in Argentina than in Chile... and cheaper!

In terms of hacking opportunities, I think that e-commerce and delivery is still not 100% solved, with very high costs for shipping, and not enough variety of products.

There's a big market for people who would love to have products like the ones from ThinkGeek, but are too expensive to ship. E.g: A t-shirt from thinkgeek costs 15 USD + 45 USD shipping!

The term Third World doesn't really mean anything any more. It originally meant that a country was not-aligned with NATO, and was neutral towards communism and capitalism. It just so happened that the countries on that list tended to be economically poor which is where the association came from. Taiwan, for example, was never a third world country. Vietnam and China are technically second world.

That being said, I spend about six months out of the year in Vietnam. Three months in NYC, three months in Saigon, etc. Originally, I had employees there, but now I just go because I have a network of friends and really love the place despite all of its warts, of which it has many. I'm not sure it's had much impact on my perspective of anything though. Maybe it's deepened my sense of American nationalism, but that's mostly from dealing with Australian ex-pats there, whom I generally loathe.

My experience with Asian cultures in general, has had some impact on how I view family as it's typically been the antithesis to how I grew up in a single parent midwest family of black sheeps.

I've lived in several countries in both the Caribbean and Latin America. It's very different and very refreshing.

We tend to think of third world countries as primitive. They may be lower on the Maslov hierarchy than people in the US or Western Europe. They may also earn less dollar wise.

However I find there is a sophistication in economic thinking, including the adoption of new technologies in many of these countries that you don't see in the US.

For example in the very early days of the web I lived a couple of places in the Caribbean and I saw internet use sky rocket faster than lesser educated groups in rich groups.

One of the main reasons was that everyone had family abroad. Email etc was just a much more economical way of communicating than paying $6/min lines with local telecom providers. I was baffled when I arrived in Panama in 2002 and everyone was paying 50c a half hour in an internet café to video chat with friends and family abroad.

I didn't even know you could do that in MSN/Yahoo messenger at the point and I'm a computer geek.

Another thing I like is that people tend to be instinctively more sophisticated about economic transactions. I've seen people with probably no more than a 6 grade education instantly negotiate and quote prices for a bag of oranges in 5 different currencies at once.

The innocent little old ladies you see in markets in the Caribbean are known as Higglers. Little did I know that many of them are more sophisticated in dealing with international markets, currencies and local market trends than the traders in the international banks.

Fascinating overhearing them talking about their latest purchasing trip to Panama or Miami to buy products to sell in the market.

International trade connections as a whole are incredibly interesting in the third world. Europeans and North Americans tend to think everything is focused around them. Yet living in Panama you learn about all the different trade routes.

Israelis importing garments from China to export to Syrian and Lebanese traders in South America.

Poor Indian immigrants selling repackaged perfume in inner city Panama contrasted with the Indian gold traders based in Hong Kong with a net of distributors and stores throughout Latin America, the Caribbean and Africa.

Fascinating stuff. I'd never have learnt about this if I had stuck it out in the "1st world".

> a much more economical way of communicating

I've read about this, I think it's called "leapfrogging your infrastructure" or something like that.

Since the US has had reliable and ubiquitous land lines for a long time, we were a lot slower at uptaking mobile phones. Whereas many African and Asian nations are only deploying land lines in a limited way, and mobile has been red-hot since well before the first iPhone.

Basically, if you don't develop technology in a certain area for a while, then it's actually easier to modernize because you don't have a large long-term investment in older technology. See post-WW2 Japanese manufacturing for another example.

another good example is the rollout of solar power to indian villages [see http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/11/30/1262301/will-ind... for example] - given that they are not already connected to the grid, building a solar plant suddenly becomes a very economically-sensible idea.

I'm born and have lived all my life in Uruguay.

It's not really "third world" IMO, income is far less, but cultural development is not so far behind.

Some important differences for a startup (these only apply to Uruguay and to a lesser extent Argentina and Paraguay):

- a lot of people don't have a credit card, and those who do won't use it for online transactions (there's a market for intermediation services, and several already thrive).

as a corollary, selling anything via subscription is a no-go.

e-commerce is basically Groupon and its clones, and the ebay-owned MercadoLibre.

- everyone recognizes the need for internet access, cell phones, etc... Cell phones are status symbols - almost nobody can afford an iPhone, but many spend way beyond their means to acquire the best cell phone they can buy.

- there's a high demand for US made content, games, etc.., and basically no legal or economical way to acquire them, so piracy is rampant.

- import goods are extremely heavily taxed (and in Argentina, outright banned), so there's a high incentive for smuggling.

I'm a Canadian who has spent the past two years living in Latin America. Most of it has been spent in Mexico and I'm currently in Guatemala.

I believe I have a higher quality of life here than in Canada. No, there's not the same health care or social programs (these are usually taken into account when determining quality of life) but those aren't things that I ever had to take advantage of in Canada.

My cost of living is much cheaper which means I can work less hours and spend more time doing the things that I enjoy.

I live 50 meters up a volcano and have an amazing view across the lake to two other volcanos. The property is 100% off the grid and I need to take a boat to get to a town to buy anything. Internet is from a 3g usb modem. https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/799543

Nothing here comes instantly. Everything moves a bit slower. This has taught me to be more patient and make better use of my time.

That looks splendid! I've spent just a bit of time in Guatemala while traveling through Central America, and I absolutely loved it, but I'm infatuated with CA in general.

I studied in Costa Rica in 2006 and felt that, in many ways, the quality of life was better than that in the U.S.

I live in a capital inside the amazon in Brazil. Before that I lived in the NYC and in the brazilian capital. This is an extremely violent and poor place.

There is so much to talk about all of this and it certainly requires more than just a comment. I will just answer your questions:

"What has been your experience?"

Pretty good. The amount of problems to solve is immense, it is a great place to start a company. Violence, climate and lack of infrastructure is tolerable. The real problem with places like this is that the lack of basic education which leads to some social problems you wouldn't expect: lack of manners, widespread corruption, this makes me sad and I plan to leave as soon as I have my first child. I contributed a lot to change this here.

"What can other Hacker News participants learn from daily life in the Third World?"

There is a lot of money to be made here. The problem is most problems cannot be solved with cute web applications.

"What Third World problems are important for hackers to attempt to solve?"

The biggest problems right now involve education and health. Example: 60-80% health problems follow the same pattern: you see a doctor, he asks for blood/urine tests, you get the results, go back to the doctor for a prescription. Build something that the poor can explain their symptoms and do those tests without going physically to a doctor and become a semi-god here. That would involve a website (or phone call) and portable blood testers. (Specially for things like malaria, E. coli, colera, dengue fever, typhoid fever, etc)

I lived in Cambodia for a couple years, and I strongly agree that most problems are related to education and health. Having grown up in the United States, where malaria, cholera, and typhoid were essentially eradicated before I was even born (and I picked up every one of those at least once during my stay in Cambodia), I really tend to think that searching for a technological solution is missing the point.

Solutions to these health problems already exist: sanitation (i.e. pick up all the garbage on the streets so that flies and rats don't spread, install plumbing and build sewage treatment to stop contaminating drinking water with feces) and mosquito eradication (build drainage systems to deal with monsoons, pick up all the garbage so the drainage systems don't stop up, install plumbing so people stop keeping big open cisterns of rainwater). The reason I got diarrhea all the time was the same reason I had to pay so many bribes: the government was basically incompetent. Malaria, cholera, and typhoid were all widespread in the first world some time ago, and computers were not necessary to eliminate them.

I really don't see how hacking per se will solve these problems. You can use computers as tools to advance political change, but this has its limits in a place like Cambodia, where 80% of people are illiterate subsistence rice farmers, and can't even afford a cell phone.

And the people with some education and most of the money spend it all on imported luxury goods. I didn't realize Lexus made 4x4s until I got to Phnom Penh, where nobody would deign to own a mere Toyota (and maybe consider paying taxes with the difference...).

Define 'lived'?

While in the Marines I deployed from Okinawa with JTF Sea Angel to Bangladesh, for a month and a few days, disaster relief after a cyclone.

Some of the things that stuck with me:

Footwear. Before I deployed, I had purchased from the uniform shop in Okinawa, for $30 US, jungle boots. Nothing special, just 'boots', like a million other guys have owned.

The Bengali soliders - enlisted guys - that drove around with our general could not believe the quality footwear that a low-ranking enlisted guy (me) could buy for a fraction of my paycheck.

Their boots, the best money could buy there, for guys who were their elite soliders, were garbage by comparison. Badly made, looked like hell, you couldn't give them away in the US.

Power Tools. Talking backhoes, bulldozers, like that. They didn't exist.

In the West, you need a trench dug for a sewer line. Hire a guy, with a backhoe. A few hours later: trench.

In Bangladesh, you hire a hundred guys, give them mattocks and shovels and pickaxes and it takes forever to get it done. Because 'by hand'.

Consider that: it's cheaper to hire guys to dig a ditch than to hire a backhoe and operator. Think of the misery and backbreaking labor involved in just putting in a 100 meter stretch of pipe.

I am replying to this question sitting in a remote village in India (and it took more than a minute to load this page)

Most of the third world problems are already solved by developed countries, IMO. The problem is accessibility - due to cost, language and literacy barriers.

This is especially true for physical products and energy (due to purchase parity) and less to do with software (due to zero distribution & cloning cost). That's why it is easy for us to thrive in software consumption/services and not in other areas.

Yep, I am currently living in Nepal doing a startup and recently wrote this:

How to move to a third-world country and plant a tech startup http://blog.cloudfactory.com/2012/10/how-move-to-third-world...

There are easier ways of doing startups in the developing world too: in most SE Asian cities you'd have 24 hour power and not be able to tell what continent you're on inside the spacious office you're renting for the price of a desk in SF. I can't help thinking the only real barrier to entry other than culture shock (not a big problem if you're somewhere like the Philippines) is terrible business regulations enforced by ridiculously corrupt officials. And some startups probably go under that radar anyway...

If you're bootstrapping with no need to network for sales, further investment or elite development skills, and don't mind adapting lifestyle a little bit, the developing world might be a good idea. If you're doing fairly time-insensitive contract work that can be done remotely or just fancy a break, it's a great idea.

(I spent most of the last 20 months in various developing countries. I'm not convinced going back to London is such a great idea yet...)

It's cool to see someone doing a startup in Nepal. I went to high school there and lived there for two years. It's where I first started programming and getting into online business. I hope the internet situation has improved. We used to have a 64kbps radio connection, and that was FAST for the country at the time.

3.6 mbps internet provided by the private telco NCELL, price is bit high though. To add, a 14 hrs of power cut per day.

Please solve corruption. Corruption is a social issue that could be mitigated by using online media to catalyze critical mass for acting against corruption.

If humanity could solve this one problem, many others would be solved automatically.

I am living in north africa right now.I am a teenager and all I can say is my friends that works at shops make more money than me working as a freelance programmer.

Honestly, the economic situation is getting fugly (Mexico), just check Proceso or La Jornada for a quick glimpse into this country transforming into a closer China.

With extremely low wages (minimum DAILY wage is $5 USD), we have 50% of mexicans living in poverty.

It's a win for USA and a win for mexican politicians, but a loss for all mexicans...

Thanks for your reply. Do you think most Mexican people will not be enjoying economic progress in their daily lives in the next decade? You mention

a win for USA and a win for mexican politicians,

but what specific policies are keeping the majority in Mexico, as you see the situation, from having rising real incomes?

The mix of inflation and low wages alone have stopped the advance of the country for at least 25 years:

* "Minimum wages lost 79.11% in the last 25 years": Article link: http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/869263.html What this means: With current wages mexicans only can buy a THIRD of what they could buy 25 years ago.

* Gasoline: Up 36% in six years.

* Oh, and the usual is a 45 hour workweek.

* Bank interest rates: 46% is usual. 107% is not unheard of (WalMart). link: http://www.apestan.com/cases/walmart-ciudad-de-mexico-distri...

What specific policies? Honestly, it all starts with corruption. It's all over the place.

I was born and grew up in Ethiopia. I went to college in India. I came to the U.S. to do grad. school and I think America is the place I will call home.

> What Third World problems are important for hackers to attempt to solve?

Corruption Corruption Corruption

>What has been your experience? I live in Bolivia and have been here for the past 14 years. Wouldn't go back to the states willingly.

Bolivia may be a poorer but it's much friendlier and you have many more freedoms the US just seems to be losing these days.

I lived in Bristol, UK for a couple of years ...

HN rarely makes me laugh, and that isn't why I come here, but your comment certainly did. Thank you!

I am from Brazil.

I was born in a 200k inhabitants city where the major economic force was farming, specially sugar cane (to make fuel alcohol actually) and also there are some cow farms there.

Later I lived a 1 million people city that is our equivalent of the sillicon valley, I saw somewhere that the city has 60% of all Brazillian programmers and also most of the scientists in many fields. It is named Campinas.

Then I moved in a 100k people town where 60% of the population is in the 10% most rich, that town is actually only a place to live, and the population there mostly work in other cities.

Now I live in São Paulo, the town proper has 11 million people, the whole metropolis has 27 million.

So, what is the experience here? Well, Brazil has one interesting issue: it wants to be US...

Except it copies the US worst stuff, without the good.

São Paulo has the second highest cost of living of the world, unfortunately I don't remember where I saw that ranking. (in Mercer São Paulo is in tenth, still very high anyway). But the wages here suck.

I worked two years ago in a big company that made mobile stuff for the biggest airlines, banks and pharma here. In the company structure I was above the senior programmers, being tagged as "solutions architect", yet my wages were around 15 USD hourly. (the wages of a senior iOS programmer were 11 USD, junior it was 7 USD).

Right now 1/3 of my money is to pay student debt, and most of the rest to pay common bills (food and rent), I don't own a car (I live in walking distance of the office, and my girlfriend has her own car), so I don't have car-related costs. To buy Bjarne book on C++ I had to use birthday money from my grandmother.

Our laws are mostly left-leaning, they reflect a lot what Obama would do, our government is horribly corrupt, and we are losing freedoms in the same speed that US is, or at a worst speed (for example to have a gun here is almost impossible, and by the way, gun crime is rising, the more gun control we have, the more gun crime rises, but gun control keep getting tighter as we started now to get school shootings too).

Public education suck. Our government is so bloated that Oscar Niemeyer (the guy that designed Brasilia) complained that the presidential palace had 4 times the daily traffic than the maximum that he designed and he was fearing the thing would one day have structural failure.

There are plenty of opportunities to make money, if you are willing to venture in illegal stuff some way or another, things here are so absurdly regulated that it was calculated that some multinational companies might spend 5% of their income just to understand the regulations (and not paying taxes or anything like that). Here in Brazil 4.2 million laws were created in the last 20 years, this mean that if the parliaments worked every single day without breaks or vacation or sunday and saturday they would still create 1150 laws every day. Try to keep track of that ;)

Also Brazil is very, very, very violent. I am 25 years old, I witnessed so far: 2 firefights, from 2 different bedrooms in two different cities, 3 times I got a gun pulled on me, and I had lots of friends tell stories like that, also my parents house got about 9 break ins in 4 years, and the cleaning lady that knows everyone in my parents neighborhood every week come with news of who got murdered.

Also here in São Paulo we had about one mass robbery (where a huge group of bandits enter a restaurant and rob all clients) for every week in the last year, and every day several people get murdered at night, and we have about 100 cops murdered last year (in São Paulo city alone).

I typed too much, maybe I write more later, time to work :)

Spot on.

Worst thing is having visited other countries and see their quality of life, and know there are better countries -- USA, Canada -- with far better opportunities...

P.S.: We also want to be US, and now we rank 2nd in obesity (US 1st)... way to go.

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