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Comment by mintplant | Hacker News Reader

> Steve Klabnik ‏@steveklabnik

> @harthvader @zeeg nothing's _wrong_ with it, but I don't want to build my app on top of others' code who are at this level of understanding

This message [1] in particular is absolutely disgusting. Someone hacked together a script that met their needs, and threw it up onto GitHub in case anyone else found it useful? Yes, let's take the opportunity to condescendingly insult their mental competency.

What does he even mean by saying that he doesn't "want to build my app" on top of harthur's code? Nobody asked him to; steveklabnik himself made the original post, taking the opportunity to show off this smug sense of superiority.

[1] https://twitter.com/harthvader/status/293829635823792128

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> What does he even mean by saying that he doesn't "want to build my app" on top of harthur's code? Nobody asked him to

I can't speak for him, but based on another comment further down ("I'll be over here in not-node"), it read like a dig at Node itself by proxy / extension.

> Yes, let's take the opportunity to condescendingly insult their mental competency.

Indeed. This type of behavior is almost never justified, but particularly less so when the object of scorn is clearly an exceedingly talented programmer. One glance at her GH profile reveals several well-used open source projects, including a neural network library and a bayesian classifier.

It really does drive home the point that if this can happen to someone of her caliber, then it really can happen to anyone. In fact, it probably does - except with less public attention.

One glance at her GH profile reveals several well-used open source projects, including a neural network library and a bayesian classifier.

Thanks so much for pointing that out (and thanks Heather for writing it :P)! I would have missed it otherwise, and I have always wanted to play with neural nets as well as bayesian filters.. this seems very friendly for me to get into, so it made my week(end) if not more :)

I might be an emotionless robot or something, but I don't get the furore over this.

Everyone writes crap code sometimes (viz. github.com/007 aka craptown USA). Just because you are "exceedingly talented" or have "well-used" projects doesn't mean everything you write is rainbows and unicorns.

If your project is useful to you, then screw everyone else - why care what they think?

https://github.com/harthur/kittydar is useless but brilliant. I'll be bookmarking it for the next time I need feature detection in JS, and because it mentions HOG descriptors.

https://github.com/harthur/replace is useful but not-brilliant. I'll bookmark the 'sed' or 'awk' manpage instead.

But it seems that complaints against the replace code wasn't about the code itself. It seems it's more about the fact that it isn't sed, that it's javascript, that it's node, and that they themselves would choose not to use it. For all those reasons they chose to publicly criticize the project in what can be considered a demeaning way. For an "open" source community, that's a bad thing and deserves this furor. In fact, it should happen more often than it does.

What a great idea to go around calling other people stupid for creating personal open-source projects that they enjoy using, mocking their competence and treating them as if they should go away because they aren't as good as you. What a productive use of a developer's time.

Even stranger is the fact that harther isn't exactly a novice programmer: apparently, she's part of Mozilla [1], and wrote brain.js [2], a neural network library in JavaScript with almost 1,400 stars on GitHub.

[1] https://twitter.com/harthvader

[2] https://github.com/harthur/brain

brain looks pretty cool and I also noticed she not only works at mozilla but also regularly speaks at conferences. Weird how judging a person's competence based on looking at a single for fun open source project may not be a great idea.

which is doubly embarrassing for the people insulting her because odds are anyone taking the time chastising someone's hacky duct tape script as if it were a Real Thing Worth Talking About probably has no comprehension of real algorithmic work, real computer science, like that needed to implement neural nets.

To be fair implementing a simple neural network is probably about par for the course as a sophomore CS undergrad project.

The basic algorithms you need can be found via google.

In my (extremely limited) experience the much more difficult part is using them to successfully solve real world problems.

Sure. My point is anyone who really seriously gets on their high horse about how great they are by looking at a simple little script that is essentially background noise for professional engineers are probably pretty far removed from even a sophomore CS undergrad level of sophistication.

Certainly, although in my experience smart , sophisticated people are by no means under-represented in the "asshole" population.

IMO the problem comes when you have people who's entire ego is based on being smart. In the past they probably had their egos massaged by getting the highest test scores in class etc and "winning" in that sense. Since the world does not work like that anymore they feel that they have to "win" at github instead.

Here's the thing, when someone like Linus Torvald says things like that, we applaud him for it.

Who's "we"? HN, let alone software devs as a whole, are not a hivemind.

I'm not sure if that's the same thing. Linus usually criticizes things in a way that actually points out the flaws. This guy is just essentially saying "LOL U SUCK"

And with Linus, it's not usually about the person (unless the person is actually being obstinate or negligent).

And here I was thinking that Linus was the one guy in open source who says "moron" a lot.

LOL U SUCK. Kidding, though some of the threads I read involving C++/C with Linus involved are so childish they are actually entertaining.

Example: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/5791...

Oh, the C++ one came to mind immediately when I read the parent comment.

"Some of the threads"

goes ahead and provides one link everybody here has read by now

does see or mention context

Linus doesn't say things like that.

If you don't understand the difference of context, well, look again!

He does. This was pretty nasty.

http://shutupmauro.com/

it is nasty but it is useful and when you a kernel maintainer is probably deserved.

Yelling at someone you're in an argument with is a world away from picking on a stranger.

(It's not necessarily good, but it is categorically different behavior.)

Dressing down someone like that on a public mailing list is absolutely picking on them. It's not an argument, and is basically no different to the behaviour here.

It is basically worlds opposite to the behavior here.

a. Linus uses swear words. Steve Klabnik used none.

b. Linus provides substantive criticism. Even if you need flame-retardant underwear to hear it.

c. Linus never ever ridicules outsiders.

So what do the two have in common, again?

I loved the mauro thread because you're seeing Linus talking to an insider of an influential project and tell him that the relative outsider with no status is right. By doing it publicly he reinforces the culture of the kernel: we don't break user code. We are a meritocracy, and if you're wrong I will not be shy about letting you know.

He could do it with less profanity. But I heartily support his doing it so emphatically. Nobody else on lkml will brush something off as a userland bug for a year.

Ridicule is an extremely poor motivational tool, and when someone of Linus' standing does it, other people think that makes it somehow ok.

There are many ways to reinforce meritocracy, or reinforce a culture without telling people to shut the fuck up in all caps.

"Linus never ever ridicules outsiders."

That's actually not true. His "security monkey" references towards other projects being an example.

If someone brings up their child in a way I think is wrong I may disapprove, but it would be wrong of me to be abusive about it. If someone deliberately hurts my child and then makes excuses, I may very well end up serving 10 years to life for what I do to them.

Do you have this opinion when you are doing it?

Do you really not see the difference between Linus Torvalds recalibrating a kernel contributor and three nobodies of questionable "conference-fame" picking on a random stranger?

No, I don't see why there should be different standards for civility in the two situations.

I don't see the difference. Could you perhaps explain it?

Sounds like a general reprimanding a subordinate who has put people's lives in danger repeatedly and needs a straightening out. He clearly explained what the problem is, and expressed frustration that this had been explained before. Quite different from what is going on with this post.

I'd say that Mauro Carvalho's replies show a class act!

https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/87

https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/24/125

I think it's inaccurate to suggest Linus is universally applauded for his rude behaviour. The last public outburst that caught wider attention than the LKML seemed to quite divide programmers in terms of its appropriateness. Personally, I found his attitude repellent and his tone unjustified.

Linus is often rude, but AFAIK not gratuitously, but I may have missed some of his public messages.

But even if it's the case, he is rude with the guys who work with him, his "captains" that he knows since a long time.

He do not bash a random project on Github totally unrelated to him just like that.

You can't compare.

No, Linus is often gratuitously rude.

Got a link ? Of Linus being gratuitously rude with a perfect stranger ?

Why does it need to be with a stranger? Rude is rude.

Linus telling someone to shut the fuck up last month: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4962912

I don't think another maintainer on the Linux kernel qualifies as a perfect stranger. The team isn't /that/ large.

Different because Mauro is talking on behalf of the Kernel and claiming obviously bad changes are good ones. Linus is reprimanding a subordinate that is supposed to be one of the most well-informed members of the Linux community as a kernel maintainer -- he's not criticizing a stranger for posting a tiny script in case it "might be useful".

Linus is DFL (not so benevolent sometimes) of Linux, and can lash out when one of his trusted lieutenants is acting like an idiot. What these guys did is call out a stranger on the street and said "YOU SUCK!"

Be that as it may he was a complete dick. I wouldn't want to work with someone like that, no matter who he is.

You don't have to. Then again, that's not a criteria for anything.

My guess is most people prefer not to work with assholes. And its a pretty good guess.

Linus and Nvidia: http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/06/torvalds-nvidia...

tubbo 0 minutes ago | link [dead]

He's usually rude to code presented to him, but he doesn't go out of his way to diss code. It's a big difference.

Linus doesn't say things like that.

He goes after people who enter discussions without bothering to understand the details or the history. If you want to code your own kernel in Java, that's your prerogative. But if you come to lkml and start preaching C++ advantages, you will get flaked.

Steve Klabnik:

"I find it incredibly hard not to be judgmental.

I'm not sure what part of my personality makes this happen, but even when I try to curb tearing down other people, I end up doing it anyway. I'm not sure if it's just me, but I think part of the problem is that these kinds of things are rewarded."

http://blog.steveklabnik.com/posts/2010-09-24-trolling-is-a-...

Textbook weasel apology.

I don't think textbook weasel apologies are usually done several years in advance.

Note the date; this one was from 2010.

His most recent post is http://blog.steveklabnik.com/posts/2013-01-23-node

And it's still a weasel apology

Generally a weasel apology would be:

"I'm sorry If I made someone feel bad"

Not

"I am sorry. I feel terrible that I made someone else feel terrible."

Corey's apology did feel nicer, but I don't think that Steve's was a bad apology.

In his "apology", Steve says three times that he was "accidentally" an asshole. That doesn't sound very sincere.

He also talks more about his feelings than the person he's apologizing to!

From that post:

> Twitter makes it so hard not to accidentally be an asshole.

No, I'm pretty sure being an asshole makes it so hard not to accidentally be an asshole. Plenty of people, including Heather, weren't assholes on Twitter.

Seriously, what a complete prick.

Not to contribute to the mindless hate, but look at the dude's Twitter photo. He's clearly an eccentric fellow. And also, apparently, an asshole.

This is scary. I share a lot of bad code in various places, that I created in process of learning or just because I needed something done quickly. I always inform that this code shouldn't be used in any system "as is", but may serve for learning purposes.

I know that a lot of people do that. And I find it incredibily useful, sometimes finding a snippet of code saves me time from jumping extra hoops, just because (for example) driver misbehaves or documentation is incorrect/incomplete.

I hope this incident doesn't stop anyone from sharing their code and findings, no matter how good or "professional" they are.

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