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Comment by hooande | Hacker News Reader

Social hacking at its finest. The benefits of a fake girlfriend go far beyond attracting a real girlfriend. Everyone looks differently at someone who is dating a hot chick. This could be just as valuable in terms of general networking or self promoting.

It makes me wonder what similar ideas are out there. For the majority of people, social capital is the most valuable kind of capital there is. Facebook itself is kind of a social hack, and there's a lot more value there. Plus, this is one of the best things to happen to nerdy high school kids. It's like the "I have a girlfriend but she's in canada" on the next level.

If you find this business to be repugnant, who do we blame? These enterprising brazilians for starting the website? Or ourselves for being so influenced by relationship status and physical appearance? The human brain is based on simple rules and you can't blame someone for capitalizing on that.

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It's kind of depressing, that promoting phoniness and deception, is elevated to the top of HN as a cool 'hack'.

Seriously? What ever happened to.. I don't know.. honor and integrity?

While not all are guilty, it does appear somewhat hypocritical that a presumably similar group, would grumble about the ills of Wall St. execs, and yet simultaneously employ analogous reasoning, just splashed with a little erudite cologne.

"Be creative, think outside the box", chanted COO Jeff Skilling whilst driving Enron to bold new heights. Results are all that matter right? 'Fuck the environment, or society or those pesky things of the past. What did you call them again? Morals? Oh how adorably cute and quaint.'

What's it called when the effects of your actions are not easily measurable and are lost in a web of causality? Who cares... it's not like we're hurting anyone elses feelings directly.

But I digress, and ranting somewhat, but please go ahead and rationalize it away (you'll feel better):

(a) 'What nonsense, you're just over-extrapolating, those things are in no way connected.'

(b) 'Ooh tell us how you really feel'

(d) ...?

When exactly was honor or integrity the norm? There have always been heroes, of course, but the reason there are heroes, and the reason we celebrate them, is because they're rare.

Besides, social interactions need some amount of deception; makeup is deception (and fake breasts, and hair dye, etc.)

Why pretending to have a girlfriend when you don't should be considered worse than makeup?

>Besides, social interactions need some amount of deception; makeup is deception (and fake breasts, and hair dye, etc.)

Sure, I can empathize with that, no-one is perfect, not our heroes and certainly not myself.

Ashamedly at one point, I seriously contemplated buying Twitter followers, as a quick boost to perceived social status. I was already rationalizing 'Oh it's just marketing' before deciding against it.

It appears to be a slippery slope though, from which making up major parts of our life story, does seems rather far removed, from a flashy tie, or a dash of makeup.

Could we not turn our gaze from heroes, instead towards ideals, knowing full well that we will never fully be able live up to them, but with the daily challenge to see how far we get?

>is elevated to the top of HN as a cool 'hack' //

There's no "cool" rating. It's interesting, it's a social hack, ergo it gets ranked well.

For this to be truly dishonorable, one would first have to accept that the enormous influenced by relationship status and physical appearance is a good thing. If one do not accept that relationship status and physical appearance should have such high impact on society, then such deception is not going to bring to mind any concept of dishonor or a lack of integrity.

Enron on other hand had a large negative impact on society. Killing the environment also bring a large negative impact on society. Wall St. execs that cheats people out of their homes, steal farms from farmers, and put people homeless on the street clearly brings to mind the concepts of dishonor and a lack of integrity.

Comparing deception directed at peoples superfluous obsession with relationship status and physical appearance, and deception that are made in an effort to earn money on the bones and lives of others are dishonest thinking. Its like comparing a DDOS attack against a corrupt police station, with terrorist attacks. They two things has nothing in common, and neither does Enron and deception regarding relationship status or physical appearance.

Pardon me, but 90% of people tell lies in their CVs (which also happen to be in the social networking space). Every single person I know who has a profile at LinkedIn has falsified somehow their job history, their set of skills or their credentials.

So why do we take for granted that someone can lie about his job skills but not about his personal life?

If people are so retarded to appreciate you more when they see you with a beautiful woman (instead of I don't know, judge you by your character perhaps?), then you have every right to give them what they expect.

>If people are so retarded to appreciate you more when they see you with a beautiful woman (instead of I don't know, judge you by your character perhaps?)

The irony of that statement just kills me.

As for CV's, happily I've never needed one, and am certainly not an HR manager, but I'd be most surprised to find "90% of people" merrily go around inventing full-on fictitious companies they've worked for.

For example:

While I accept your point that some may color their CV's... falling short, by embellishing one's previous role at a prior company, is simply not in the same ballpark as inventing a completely fake person that you're dating.

And for the record, the existence of gray in the world, does not give one a free pass, to simply proceed straight to black.

I don't think the OP says people invent fictitious companies, but I see fiction and embellishment in a lot of CVs..

One guy that worked in the backroom sorting correspondence in the company I work for claimed he was "Manager" on his LinkedIn profile.

And all the programmers I work with claim they "led" the projects they were in.

I've yet to see somebody invent a company, but many cite their own freelance "companies" and their roles as CEOs.

I do agree that there shouldn't be a free pass to proceeding straight to black.

> Every single person I know who has a profile at LinkedIn has falsified somehow their job history, their set of skills or their credentials.

That says more about the company you keep than anything else.

Wow you really know everything don't you?

It says that they’re ordinary folks who would like to be perceived a little better than their current status. I guess your acquaintances are all super successful people who have nothing to lie about regarding their professional life. It must be so boring for you addressing mere mortals like us, with flaws and everything.

I'm just regular-successful, but my resume does not contain any embellishment. If anything, it undersells me.

I know at least one person who doesn't lie on his LinkedIn--in fact, I'm not sure I know anyone who does, though it's statistically likely--and never considered this especially remarkable before.

>The human brain is based on simple rules and you can't blame someone for capitalizing on that.

Yes I can. I don't really care about it in this particular case (although the whole concept just makes me sad), but I could give plenty of examples of exploiting human nature that are reprehensible and deserving of blame. That something is easy does not make it ethical.

To extrapolate this, people have taken advantage of other peoples' weaknesses. Gambling, drug addictions, suicidal thoughts...everyone has a weakness that can be exploited.

I reiterate your statement; exploiting that vulnerability IS to blame and should not be applauded.

Can exploiting human nature be a positive thing? If looking healthy to attract the opposite sex can encourages people to work out, is that exploiting our "simple" sexual nature?

To me, pretending to have a girlfriend seems as deceitful as dying your hair. Now, I've never done either so I can't say for certain.

Furthermore, if your perception of someone changes because they're in a relationship, then maybe you should be exploited. You'll then realize you should valuate a person based on who they are, not their relationship status - and maybe you'll be better off. Or maybe I'm trying too hard to rationalize this behavior lol

> To me, pretending to have a girlfriend seems as deceitful as dying your hair.

To most people, it isn't. If you going to "social hack", better know what to expect.

There's a concept called "lie". Dying your hair is cosmetics. Saying you're in relationship when you're not is a lie.

It's still just a lie. A cosmetic lie, but a lie. Are fake breasts less fake than a fake girlfriend? They're all just lies used by these people to get whatever they want from it.

Of course this is horrible, but it's funny how people don't think fake breasts, makeup or photoshop on personal pictures are also horrible. In those cases they are just tools, right?

Hypocrisy is the name of this age.

There's a difference. Fake breasts and makeup fall into the same bucket as actually having a girlfriend. Telling everyone you have a girlfriend when you don't is another bucket.

When a woman surgically enhances her breasts, she has bigger breasts, so she's not lying. She would be if, when asked, she would tell people that they are natural.

Dyed hair is only a lie if you claim that it's not.

>Can exploiting human nature be a positive thing?

It becomes a matter of semantics. Certainly human nature can be used in positive ways. There are techniques you can use to hack on your own brain. For example, if you want to become more conscientious and involved in improving society, signing petitions and donating to charities is a way that you can trick your brain into making you do so. Merely writing down statements and signing your name to them can actually cause you to change your beliefs.

But I don't know if "exploit" is the best word for that.

>Everyone looks differently at someone who is dating a hot chick.

How do you think they will look at you when the truth comes out? I expect the negatives will outweigh any transient positives by a considerable margin.

That assumes you ever get caught. Though I know of at least one public case where someone tried this and got busted, ruining his reputation, but the problem was he was doing all the content himself and doing it very badly. Presumably this place will write the content for you so you don't accidentally project yourself onto your fake girlfriend.

What about the people who know you? People who never interact with you in the flesh don't care if you have a girlfriend, but the people you actually see on occasion will eventually expect to see her.

You will get caught by friends and relatives. And you may laugh and explain what you're doing, but even as you explain people are going to think "What a loser!"

"Social hacking at its finest. The benefits of a fake girlfriend go far beyond attracting a real girlfriend. Everyone looks differently at someone who is dating a hot chick. This could be just as valuable in terms of general networking or self promoting."

Right, assuming your primary concern is convincing douchebags to like you, you'll be golden.

I think you're wrong. I'm dating a a really good-looking girl (11 out of 10) but this fact hasn't changed how people view me. I'm below average in the social hierarchy and treated that way so I would notice if anything changed.

Maybe you're not doing it right. A sloppy dresser will still look sloppy driving an exotic supercar. But a sharply dressed man will look so much more fly in that same car.

That still only impresses the kind of people who would be impressed by a sports car; the solution obviously is to hang out with more shallow people. Make 'em dumb fucking sexists for bonus points.

Who with a shred of intelligence, and the same apprecation of females as human beings and persons as they have for males, would think otherwise? Why should a "hot chick" or a "big earner" increase your "social status" with anyone but complete schmucks? I'm honestly curious.

Correct but why make a principled stand on this? Those who wish to claw onto status will like you for this, and those that don't will like you for your underlying personality. The former are quite flawed but they're still people.

The former are quite flawed but they're still people.

Which is kind of the reason for making a principled stand: They are human, they aren't going to go away anytime soon, they want to be respected or even loved, and extreme shallowness makes it impossible for me to do that. If I didn't have at least a remaining iota of goodwill towards them, I'd exploit them instead of bitching at them.

... makes it impossible for me to do that.

Nobody cares about your love and admiration unless you're somebody whose interest they think they should seek. That's why you're complaining about not having proper, willing targets for your affection -- desirable people have the problem of having their attention excessively demanded. The way you signal that you have something interesting is by displaying evidence of demand, not by standing up and reciting principles.

Hahaha, you wish! My problem isn't lack of demand, if anything it's women pouting because I ignore them, and dudes being aggro because said women are pouting. so thanks for playing. Maybe you should simply speak for yourself and otherwise get off the strawmen...

Um... okay whatever you say captain. I'm sure a baller like you doesn't have to prove your player status to a random nobody on a nerd forum, so I appreciate your going out of the way to do it. Coupled with your previous complaints about how unfair social dynamics can be, you don't at all sound pathetic.

This is the only time/place people are getting brownie points for calling something out as sexist -- i.e., when they realize that having a girlfriend could make a man look good, and the other guy just found an unfair advantage in that department.

At all other times, women have every advantage in the world and no imposed limitations to speak of.

You might have made the mistake I don't include certain ladies in "dumb fucking sexists" ^^ And on what planet are downmoderations brownie points?

WTF is this social hierarchy? I hear about it a lot but really it just sounds like hanging out with douchebags.

I think this is an expression that sums up how you view yourself in comparison to other people and how you think other people view and "rank" you. I can honestly not imagine that anyone has never had thoughts like this, so for better or worse, there IS something like this out there and if you need more proof then just think of all the brands and labels offering you mostly image and their name and a perceived step-up in that imaginary hierarchy.

After a couple of years of trying to become more outgoing and understanding social mechanisms, I rate pretty high on this "ladder". But as a byproduct, I can't stand to hang out with people who actually seem to care about people's social standing.

People who care a lot about fake gimmicks like these (clothes, friends, status, power) are usually shallow, self-centered and insecure; the exact opposite of the people a self-confident and secure person would want to hang out with. It's the same thing when dating; there are a lot of semi-dishonest tricks guys can use to appear more attractive to a lot of girls. But the girls that fall for these tricks are rarely very interesting on a more personal level.

It's a mechanism that's cool to be aware of, but not something that any secure person would actually endorse. Unless you _need_ to interact with people like these in a professional setting or something.

> After a couple of years of trying to become more outgoing and understanding social mechanisms

Could you elaborate on that or provide links, books, anything that worked for you? I agree with your view and I don't see this ever changing for me, yet I would still like to make these experiences for myself to be honest.

I'm not the OP, and I haven't read these books, but many people swear by:

Influence: the psychology of persuasion, by Robert Cialdini

http://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psychology-Persuasion-Busine...

The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature

http://www.amazon.com/Red-Queen-Evolution-Human-Nature/dp/00...

One I HAVE read, and I strongly recommend is How To Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influenc...

Also, I've read many people mention a lot about Neuro-Linguistic Programming. I'm usually skeptical of this stuff, but I want to read about it.

I did read "The Game" by Neil Strauss... while it is not something I want to do, it is really intriguing, and he advocates NLP a lot in that book.

And while I'm nerdish/socially awkward, I have a long-term relationship with my girlfriend so I don't "need" to go picking up girls :) .

I look forward to the original poster's list :)

Try Rejection Therapy: http://rejectiontherapy.com

If you do a search online, you'll find lots of stories and comments of how it's helped people or even changed their life.

Sure. It's been a long journey that I started about four or five years ago. I honestly haven't been reading that much. I guess if anything, Neil Strauss's "The Game" was probably the only significant piece of writing that set me off and piqued my curiosity for social games and mechanisms. I've also read some of the darker pickup blogs (http://heartiste.wordpress.com/) which are not recommended if you want to retain your faith in humanity. They do provide some insights in some social games, though, including status whoring and related things. Don't take it too seriously, but there are probably some insights to learn there. It seems to me that the best people to hang out with are the ones that are impervious to stuff like this. None of my best friends (well, maybe with one exception) would fall for the kind of manipulation that Heartiste describes. Some subreddits (/r/sex, /r/relationship_advice) have been valuable for hearing horror stories of people not standing up for themselves in a relationship setting, and why it's important to have principles. You'll hear these in real life as well.

The most significant thing I've been doing has really been to get out in the world and meet as many people as possible, along the way seeing these social games first-hand. This has involved living in a different country for a year and going to almost every party or social event that presented itself. Initially it was to overcome depression/social anxiety, meet girls and make new friends, but after a few years it's turned into more of an interest in people and getting new experiences. After a while you have been in so many social situations that you stop worrying about what image you present, and see more of the personalities, motivations and insecurities behind most people's facades.

I don't know how old you are (I'm 26 now) but I'd guess some form of social travelling (backpacking, maybe studying abroad) and saying yes to as many invitations as possible would be a good starting point. Also actively trying to become a better person - more fit, more friendly, less able to get manipulated or taken advantage of, more knowledgable, more secure. There's probably some confirmation bias on my end here, there are probably multiple was to get these experiences. I _do_ recommend "The Game" since it's a very fascinating account. Hope that helps.

While it IS a human-made fiction, the "social hierarchy" is not imaginary (as you said, there is "something out there").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_stratification

It also depends on the society or country (ask Indians about it).

Defying/misclasifiying yourself in social hierarchies can end up very badly for the one doing it, but they can be succesfully hacked (like you mention, brands prey on that).

Edit: not only humans, other animals have social hierarchies as well.

I'm probably projecting a bit, but it's always struck me as the domain of non-creators who cannot find anything meaningful to do with their lives, so they ladder-climb everywhere they can.

Many people never graduated high school in that sense.

I did have thoughts like this, but I grew out of them when I stopped being a teenager.

You don't really need to blame someone, but if your life capital depends on hacks like that, then it's a sad life.

Tangentially, Michael Sandel's "What money can't buy" is a good book about the morals of markets:

  You could even bolster your online popularity by hiring 
  some good-lookgin "friends" for your facebook page - for
  99 cents per friend per month

Um, the person who's lying, obviously.

> If you find this business to be repugnant, who do we blame?

People that use it.

...up until the point when everyone keeps asking you when you will FINALLY bring that "hot chick" to the next party or meet-up.

Then you have a very "public" (on Facebook) bust-up where she makes you seem even more attractive by complaining about the attention you supposedly get from some other hot girl, and "break up" so you can show up all "emotional and vulnerable" at the party....

But this only delays the inevitable and you cannot stretch this game on forever either.

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