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Comment by kqr | Hacker News Reader

> What Windows calls ⏎ Enter, Mac calls ⏎ Return.

I'm not an Apple person at all, but this is one of the hills I die on. The "Enter" key is for entering data, submitting a field, etc. The "Return" key is for returning the carriage, i.e. starting a new line. Importantly, those two are different functions! The only keys that exist twice on the keyboard are modifier keys (Ctrl, Shift, sometimes Super and Alt). The Return or Enter keys do not need to exist twice. Clearly these are meant to be two different functions, because they are two different keys on the keyboard.

To my wife's annoyance, I teach my children the correct names for these keys.

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The carriage return is moving the typehead to the beginning of the line, not starting a new one.

Line feed is the command that is incrementing to the new line.

Those two commands almost always run together so it quickly became possible to invoke with a single CRLF command (in ancient computer times)

I know, and the Return key both returns the carriage and feeds the paper forward a line on teletypes. Hence the symbol ⏎, indicating "down and to the left" (for LTR languages.)

The symbol is a bit awkward in conjunction with the name "Carriage Return" though, because the Carriage returns to the right. (assuming left-to-right writing)

You know I have literally never noticed that, but you're right. The carriage slides over to the right, leaving the levels to hit the left side of the paper.

Why it just shows what happens on the paper?

It does. But if the name is "carriage return" and the icon is an arrow, it would make sense that the arrow shows where the carriage returns to.

It's still an understandable choice though. I am just adding thought to complicate matters.

The characters all represent what the carriage does to the paper. So I would expect that the icon for "carriage return" shows what happens on/to the paper, when the carriage returns.

The arrows on newer keyboards are gone. Now it's just text. I wonder if that changes anything because Enter doesn't really sit well with the arrow next to it as entering data need not necessarily cause a carriage return.

> The only keys that exist twice on the keyboard are modifier keys

> The Return or Enter keys do not need to exist twice

I use the doubled enter key much more than i have ever used the secondary modifier keys.

It is very convenient for quickly entering numeric only data with one hand, especially as it is the hand that would naturally use the big enter key.

I have a delightful image in my mind of you explaining to the kids over breakfast the nuances of enter and return, and how Steven Jobs should burn in hell for confusing generations of Mac users.

> The only keys that exist twice on the keyboard are...

I wouldn't take "the standard 104 keyboard layout" as a respectable design.

- If the modifier keys exist twice, then why aren't they placed symmetrically?

- Most users use a mouse with the right hand; yet the numpad is placed on the right side of the keyboard (which means it's even further away). e.g. placing keyboard in front of you in the screen then means the mouse needs to be way off centre.

- That the letters remain asymmetrical shows adherence to tradition/familiarity over improving a good design.

- The spacebar doesn't need to be >6x the size of other keys.

- Caps Lock can be useful but isn't significant enough to be worth putting where it is.

I mean. I can agree with distinguishing "Return" and "Enter". But I wouldn't refer to the typical keyboard layout as if it's a well thought out design.

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