> walk in
> see this title
> think authors are reversing causation hard
-- signed, a deep Night Owl
> see this title
> think authors are reversing causation hard
-- signed, a deep Night Owl
The following (informally described) symptoms are well-known consequences of ADHD:
- Delayed Sleep Phase [1]
- Staying Up Late [2]
- Revenge Bedtime Procrastination [3]
Newsflash, getting a full night's sleep helps alleviate ADHD symptoms, while being perpetually sleep-deprived wrecks us.
But there are reasons why we stay up late. Simply forcing us to sleep doesn't address those reasons.
Which is why I wrote about it so much, and keep spamming these links even though it feels so darn obvious. Not to the authors of the study, it appears.
[1] https://romankogan.net/adhd/#Delayed%20Sleep%20Phase
staying up late rocks. its the funnest. why would i give that up? just to pay attention better at work? no thanks.
You may eventually find yourself in a situation where the tradeoff is worth it.
E.g., you have a family to feed, and your ability hold a well-paying job hinges on your performance.
sigh
ADHD PEOPLE ARE NOT MOTIVATED BY REWARD[1]
We literally can't do the things we want and need to do [2].
We know full well the trade-off is worth it. It's just that we can't have it.
Sincerely,
--an AuDHDer
I'm not sure that's an entirely fair way to frame that. ADHD people can be highly motivated by reward, but being motivated isn't enough to consistently navigate the path from wanting something to getting something. Reward can make you want something more, and even try harder for it, but ADHD means that sometimes no matter how much you want something and how hard you try it just doesn't happen.
N=1 here, but for me, anything that's more than an hour or two in the future rapidly loses any motivating power; any reward that happens after more than a day may as well happen at infinity.
We consciously want the thing, but that isn't enough for executive function to kick in, so "I need to get off the sofa so I can make tasty dinner" results in not having moved two hours later.
We seem to have a different understanding of the word motivate.
I use it in a very straightforward sense: motivation is the energy to move forward to your goal. It's motive force.
For example, I might understand that I need to file taxes, pay fines, or apply for such-and-such benefit, I might want to do that for the rewards (or lack of bad consequences for filing late), but I just can't motivate myself to do it until it becomes an urgent emergency and everything is on fire.
As in, I can't get myself to move on this task.
>ADHD means that sometimes no matter how much you want something and how hard you try it just doesn't happen.
We fully agree here.
Executive functioning is a better term to use, but people are familiar with motivation more.
Both meanings look like they're valid uses of the term. The "to cause to take action", "to cause someone to behave" and "to incite/actuate/propel" definitions focus on what initiated an action/behavior, while most of the definitions I found focus on just having or providing a reason/incentive/desire/enthusiasm/encouragement for an action which applies even if that action never actually materializes.
to give (someone) a reason for doing something
to be a reason for something
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/motivate
To provide with an incentive or a reason for doing something; impel:
To cause to be enthusiastic
to give incentive to
to provide with a motive or motives; incite; impel.
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/motivate
To provide someone with an incentive to do something; to encourage; to actuate.
To animate; to propel; to cause to take action.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/motivate
to cause someone to behave in a particular way:
to make someone want to do something well:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/motivateI can do all of these things anyway. Of course, this does present the potential reality that were I able to sleep like people, I could be even more successful, but after a near death experience, then disability, I've learned to be happy with where I am.
I am in this situation, forcing me to adapt and get up early like most normies.
My job performance did not improve. And going to sleep early only makes me more miserable, because now I have exactly zero personal, interrupt-risk-free time.
It's not that there aren't tradeoffs, it's that we don't get to choose these tradeoffs (as in: the cost of choosing is huge and nonzero).
Some people are just night owls. A large percentage of night owls have ADHD. I think they can linked without it meaning that people with ADHD have to learn to get up at 5AM.
Keep staying up late if that's what feels natural for you, but it's probably worth making sure that you're still getting enough sleep and that you don't have other issues (like sleep apnea) keeping you from getting the quality of sleep you need. There's a lot of other health issues associated with sleep disorders and sleep problems will tank people's ability to focus even when they have non-ADHD brains.
but there's a strong cultural bias to judge people that wake up at 11am as lazy. and people that stay up to 4am are reckless.
but somebody that slept the same seven hours from 11pm-6am is pragmatic and responsible.
Everyone may experience some of those things some of the time, particularly if they are overwhelmed, overworked, overstressed, etc.
ADHD is experiencing most of these most of the time - as in all the time - for your entire life.
As an analogy: everyone may experience toe pain sometimes if and when they stub their toe on kitchen table leg.
But if it hurts like that all the time, for your entire life - you'd get it checked out, right? There are solid chances something is different about your body.
Now multiply that by 100.
To reword this: say, each relatable entry on that page is a 2% likelihood of ADHD.
If you relate to 100 of them, the chances you're not ADHD drop to 13%.
I've got enough people through an official diagnosis this way that this page, in itself, is a decent enough diagnostic tool.
Not all highly correlated symptoms will turn out to have a common mechanistically-explainable cause, but all symptoms of a mechanistically-explainable cause obviously are highly correlated.
The sign has been pretty specific that it's the first (specific condition), and not the latter.
To get the big thing out of the way: brain scans of people with ADHD show measurable differences in brain structure, activity, and neurotransmitter levels compared with neurotypical brains[1].
Secondly, ADHD is highly hereditary, to the tune of 75%+ chance[2].
But you don't need a brain scan for your answer. There's a reason ADHD is a thing in DSM (if it were merely "a set of common symptoms", it wouldn't be).
Each "symptom" (a manifestation of an ADHD trait) in and of itself may not be rare, and people in general may experience it during certain conditions.
ADHD is experiencing a hella lot of them off the list, for absolute majority of the time, all your life.
Please really, really pay attention to the example I gave. It looks like you glossed over it entirely.
And yes, I'm fully aware of the irony of asking someone to pay more attention in this thread.
> I wonder which direction a causal relationship between sleep and ADHD might be.
The ADHD --> horrible sleep causation is well established.
The horrible sleep --> ADHD symptoms become worse causation is also well established.
Horrible sleep --> ADHD causation is nonexistent. There is nothing indicating that ADHD could be an acquired condition. There's all the evidence to the contrary (you are born this way, as the song goes).
The study establishes that "fixing" circadian rhythm helps with ADHD symptoms, which is a Captain Obvious moment (full night's sleep makes brain work better, and we have difficulty getting it ever).
I'm not sure what other causation you are looking for.
[1] https://www.adhdevidence.org/blog/finding-order-in-the-compl...
being perpetually sleep-deprived wrecks everyone. If you've got ADHD getting the sleep you need won't cure it, but it will make it easier to manage. If you don't have ADHD, but a lot of the symptoms fit for you, getting sleep might those all go away.