Visa, Mastercard, major banks facing new litigation over 'anticompetitive' fees
classaction.org
classaction.org
I would not be surprised if rather than continuing to battling it out with the credit card companies to negotiate for lower fees, more and more retailers adapt to the cashless economy by leaning on ACH in lieu of credit cards, especially in market segments where repeat business is common (basically any retailer that has an existing loyalty program).
To put it another way: Sure, litigation is an option, but even if you win the concessions you want, it will leave the credit card companies entrenched. Pushing more customers to pay via non-credit-card methods has the benefit of more immediate financial impact, less reliance on the legal system, and deterioration of the power that led to the anticompetitive behavior in the first place.
I had to on the spot download a mobile app to pay to get my car back from valet parking at a really nice hotel the other day. They only accepted payment via the app which they did not disclose before taking the car. I had to stand there for 10 minutes installing the app and setting it up and I will likely never go back to that hotel (becuase of location, not the app).
No idea what would have happened if I just had an old fashioned flip phone
But you don't know who owns or operates a gas station. They've all got big brand names, but what's their business model? Who's actually running the transaction? The gas pumps are practically unattended and, highly regulated by Weights and Measures because of the high potential for vendor fraud already. Gas stations are already notorious locales for card-skimmer danger. So, I would be loath to get into an ACH bank dispute with Sri Singh McSikhface.
I already had massive troubles, some of them Visa-related, with local laundries and dry cleaners. They are vicious, fly-by-night, and dishonest. I would not risk the same shitty experiences with gas stations.
I’m also wondering if you and I have encountered rather different permutations of these “pay-via-loyalty-app” schemes. In the part of the world where I’ve been spending time, the gas purveyors who I notice pushing the apps are the big, brand-name fuel station networks. The same ones who’ve pushed own-brand payment services to fleet managers for a while.
If you’re worried about card skimmers, wouldn’t you prefer to use the method that routes payment directly through Corporate Fuel Parent, rather than trusting the franchisee with any of your financial information?
1. Merchants need to be allowed to add card processing fees on top of any transaction, and it should be possible to do this very easily. If not this, then any receipt should be required to include card processing fees.
2. Merchants should be allowed to pick and choose which cards they accept without penalty.
Those two simple changes would add competitive pressure back into the payment processing market, and quickly cause fees to lower.
Or put another way: the list price must be reasonably achievable, but charging more for "extras" (eg. a more expensive card with benefits) is always permitted.
The best answer is probably a combination of the two: break out the bullshit costs the customer has to pay so that the consumer can see them, but still give them the upfront cost as early in the transaction as possible.
If you pay via a medium that does not return some of the margin to you in the form of rewards or a 'cash/debit' rebate, then functionally you're paying an invisible tax.
This means everyone should be using credit, ideally the highest reward options, which themselves have the highest processing fees, which result in higher prices all around. The creation of higher tiers of rewards and super-premium cards just repeats this cycle, whereby normal cardholders and cash/debit users are now subsidizing high-spend premium card users.
Further, large retailers negotiate significantly preferential rates and lower processing fees for their book of business. This means small and medium sized businesses pay significantly more per transaction for processing, meaning they're less competitive and less pricing pressure is placed on large retailers, which again raises prices for you.
There's also the card issuer side of things, but in short if you're not changing your credit cards regularly, companies will depreciate rewards and benefits over time in previous lines to move you into a higher margin segment of their portfolio.
In short, there's already a divergence, and you're already paying for it in multiple ways.
even with your optimal strategy, you're still paying for it: those points might as well be already spent at the network of vendors you've agreed to sell your purchase history to
it says so in their balance sheets :)
Unfortunately it has become a popular idea to ban the surcharging of these costs by retailers, so it's likely to be outlawed by next year, which is completely asinine. Now we'll be back to a situation where customers who use a cheap payment method will be subsidizing customers who use an expensive payment method.
And guess who wins there...
Just curious, how is this not painfully obvious and so there's opposition to it? Nobody is expecting this to lower prices, right...
Why the same logic does not apply to cash payments? They have costs too.
> Unfortunately it has become a popular idea to ban the surcharging of these costs by retailers, so it's likely to be outlawed by next year, which is completely asinine.
It's completely sane. Surcharges are now outlawed in Australia (from 1 Oct) and I finally paid for my coffee exactly the same amount that was written in the blackboard. Businesses that do not want to absorb the 0.5% fees are free to stop accepting credit cards or can raise prices (none near me did that so far). That's fine, the most important thing is if coffee is 5.50, you pay 5.50, not some random amount.
Last week, I visited two unrelated non-profit museums, and when there is free admission I strive to make a freewill donation to show my appreciation and lend support to the mission. I offered the same amount to each location, and the second one, according to my bank statement, has involuntarily charged me for the fees as well. No wonder they greatly prefer tossing cash into the Plexiglas box.
“Pick and choose which cards they accept without penalty” won’t do anything in a market where 3-4 card processors and 3-5 banks have a near-monopoly on transactions.
If I sell ice cream and decide I won’t accept Chase credit cards because the fees are too high I’ve just lost 1/4 of my customers or something crazy high like that.
Let’s quit trying to find weird workarounds to keep capitalist failures propped up and use regulatory teeth.
Cap transaction fees at something reasonable like 0.5% and the problem disappears overnight.
Yes, you’ll lose your rewards, and that’s a good thing. Rewards cards are a massive wealth transfer mechanism that shouldn’t be legal.
What there aren't are rampant cash-back rewards for using a particular card. Or easy access to credit cards with usurorious rates. I think missing out on those is a societally good outcome.
They can* and they do.
*It is capped to the actual processing fee, the card network must be notified, and the fee must be disclosed upfront to the consumer. A couple of states like CT and MA disallow consumer fees.
On most planned larger purchases (like more than $1000), I've seen CC fees recently.
> Merchants should be allowed to pick and choose which cards they accept without penalty.
To be clear for readers, merchants can choose their accepted card networks -- Visa, Mastercard, Amex (or alternatives like PayPal).
Networks requires merchants to accept all of the card within that network (hence the name "network"). Visa has three tiers; Mastercard has four. Something like ~90% of CCs fall in the traditional rewards tier, so there's less card variation than you might think. Though higher tiers tend to spend disproportionately more.
Stripe and the flat x% + $y are of course popular because of the simplicity and predictability of it.
The app even has a warning that Zelle is basically cash, and you really shouldn't expect any reversal.
So I dug into Zelle reversals one time when a landlord stole my security deposit and I was considering reversing last month's rent until small claims figures it out. Banker said Zelle charges aren't normally reversible, but reluctantly admitted they are required to reverse the charge if it was unauthorized. Had I lied and said someone hacked my account, it may have been reversed, but then I'd be committing fraud.
Cashier's checks too. Despite what everyone says, they are reversible under the right circumstances. TurboTax's refund processor did that to me because they thought my address was wrong or something.
I recently ordered some snacks from another country and after 3 months the vendor stopped responding while never having sent anything. When I asked for a chargeback, my claim was denied because I didn’t have proof they didn’t send anything! I literally had an email from them that said they are backed up and unable to send stuff.
I literally had a bike rental company in Amsterdam attempt to get me to conspire to report a bike stolen (which had briefly been stolen but was back in my possession), and then when I refused, charged me as if the bike had been stolen!
I reported all this to Amex, and I was never refunded, and to my knowledge, the attempt fraud was never investigated.
This was a moving company that insisted I should use their flat rate package and 3 movers rather than the 6 hourly I asked for. It took forever and they tried to charge me extra fees.
The lengths insurance companies will go just to avoid adding to a deductible are, given the circumstances, rather disgusting.
They don't seem to produce any savings. Are credit card companies much different? Why are their CEOs making millions of dollars? Is it all supposed to be because of innovation in preventing fraud?
As with health insurance companies I too have found in reality their way of dealing with these things leaves much to be desired. The way they treat it seems transparently like health insurance - add minimal value upfront, then wear you down so you never actually get the service or "value" they were supposed to provide in the first place.
That shitty service is the margin padding that multi million dollar salary. Where's the innovation?
That's essentially what a CC company does though, every transaction they're briding the timing gap between the card holder paying the CC company and the CC company paying the business. That's the core value add and cost they're bearing that they charge for.
They have risks from both sides of the transaction; on the one hand scam merchants who might get chargebacks and on the other customers who never pay off their balances (thought I guess that risk is covered by their interest charges mostly).
https://usa.visa.com/content/dam/VCOM/global/support-legal/d...
> If the dispute is valid, the acquirer deducts the amount of the dispute from the merchant account and informs the merchant.
Also, keep in mind that companies like Stripe will not only recover the disputed amount from the merchant but will also recover a fee from the merchant!
Fraud in modern financial systems is kind of.. funny? obvious? Local banks who know who Bob is can't make enough money due to scale, we'll scale that system to a national level with millions of participants. How will we do that? Bob is now customer 11,476,112. Oh no this anonymous number we created cheated us because we didn't know who he was, what do we do? Charge Bob and everyone else for the cost of this, our scaled up business model wouldn't work otherwise. We'll skim 3% off of every financial transaction infinitely, so that after our $100 virtual bill has changed hands 30 times it has disappeared into our coffers.
Nowadays for the first purchase for a merchant it can require me to hold my card to my phone to prove that I have physical ownership of the card.
Returning a defective product to one store, only buying things when you have coupons or promo codes, or issuing a chargeback at one business can get you instantly flagged as a higher risk at countless unrelated stores who are using the same services. Other factors that can impact your score include your income level, your home address, the devices/software you use, your interactions with websites (for example going directly to the product you want instead of searching and browsing around, or pasting your information vs typing it out is considered suspicious), how much money you spend, inconsistencies in the personal information you've given to different businesses, even your attitude when dealing with employees and how much of their time you take up can negatively impact how you're scored since that lowers your expected profitability (CLV/LCV/LTV) which lowers the tolerance threshold for risk.
At least Yelp is public and companies can see how they are rated. Businesses typically won't tell you that you've been branded a high risk for fraud or chargebacks. Instead they'll just apply different prices and polices to you on an individual basis. They might tell you that don't accept certain payment methods. They might tell you they don't accept returns, will only give store credit, or give very narrow return windows. They may reject your business entirely or limit you to only a subset of the products or services they offer.
Look at the tension between United States and Brazil on this issue with their nationalized payments system.
The fact is the most important relationship Visa and MasterCard have is the one you left unsaid - their relationship with the United States government.
If I bake cakes to sell them, and have to pay 3% to a network for each purchase, then that 3% is in the price of the cakes.
In Brazil, you'll typically get a "10% discount" when not paying by credit card.
Eg, it's very clearly pushed unto the consumer. I assume some law says they cannot charge more for it, so they got a default price, but always advertise a lower price with a small text "if paid via pix"
1. I would like payment processors to have the resources and capacity to adapt to threats and maintain highly resilient infrastructure. This is expensive and requires a lot of ongoing investment.
2. If payment processing was turned into a public service, the complexity of international integration and necessary relationships, standards, etc. would become a public service burden. I'm not sure that I trust my provincial or federal government to handle this adeptly.
3. There is a lot to this that we're probably unaware of.
I'm not trying to protect banks in the slightest, but it's a baby and bathwater situation. I'm not confident in my country's ability to create its own payment processing platform that I would trust to be a reliable, sustainable, value-generating system operated by public servants. I don't mean value-generating in the profiteering sense, but in the "this is worth operating on public funds because, ultimately, it is more than worth what tax payers put into it".
I think some things are an awesome fit for public services, but a lot of places are probably not equipped to take this kind of task on safely and competently. My country is more likely capable of regulating these institutions, not replacing them internally.
We tried to make a COVID-tracking app and spent $59.5 million, and it was an abject failure. How much would we spend on a broken payment processing platform?
You live in Canada, which already has better options than the U.S., though the sittuation is getting better in the U.S.
For example, Interac is free for most people and very easy to use.
Debit payments often cost merchants less than 10 cents per tap. The local gelato place only takes debit or cash; if you don't have either, they're happy to accept an Interac payment, and do so more often than you'd think.
Part of the problem is that the incentives are misaligned. People want their points systems. Merchants want customers, but they also want lower transaction fees. Most customers have debit cards that would be much cheaper for merchants, but choose to use their credit cards, because they want the "rewards."
While the 3% or so that a bank charges might seem low, if you look at this from a low-margin business, that 3% may actually be much higher percentage of their net profit.
Regulation concerning rewards systems could go a long way towards shifting the system to be much less costly for businesses.
There's not much hope of real change here; Canadian banks are very profitable, and are a cornerstone of our economy. It's very unlikely that politicians will do anything to risk that.
I gave up on them when the IRS discriminated against debit for identity verification when applying for COVID EIP.
Anything optional that skims off the top cuts into profits extremely quickly.
Businesses which accept credit cards get the business of customers who want to use credit cards. Those which don't, do not. Me? I want to tap my watch, get my 2%, and leave. I do not want to reach into my pocket, extract my debit card, and enter my PIN. Not a dealbreaker, I do business on the regular with two places which are cash and debit. But it's my preference.
Yes, there is an underlying coordination problem here. The major payment networks are quite probably engaging in anticompetitive behavior, as the lawsuit we're talking about indicates. But this does not, at all, mean that businesses which accept credit cards are penalized financially for that decision, on the contrary, in expectation we would find that most are rewarded for it, on the simple evidence that most of them do, in fact, accept them.
Separating it from any other costly incentive to do business, free samples, flyers, discount sales, loss leaders, is just special pleading. A cost benefit analysis includes costs and benefits, or it is unworthy of the name: and customers doing business are a benefit to that business.
I bet most people paying by credit are really using debit cards, but pick "credit" at the register because they don't want to enter a pin. Partly for security, but mostly because credit is faster/easier.
The app itself was deficient in testing, had security issues, wrongly told thousands of people to quarantine, was not as accessible as it should have been, and was overall very mediocre software. If that's what my federal government can deliver (albeit through contractors and middlemen all the way down), I don't want them anywhere near my finances.
Public adoption was mandatory for a time, so that aspect couldn't have failed.
And of course, the Canada Revenue Agency is clearly able to manage people's taxes and aspects of finances safely and securely, but that has decades of effort and tremendous financial investment behind it. A greenfield effort seems a lot less safe, and I trust the public service much less to execute on that coherently, consistently, and effectively enough to deliver something better than we presently have.
The underlying issue is not if we can build the network (we can) but getting people to actually use it. For example, if we wanted to repeat the Japanese success of IC cards here, we'd run headfirst into the problem that our public transit networks aren't big enough to be a credible Visa/MC alternative:
- Most public transit systems large enough to issue their own fare cards and readers are also regional monopolies, because there's not enough transit demand to sustain multiple companies with different routes. If I'm in Pittsburgh, all the buses and trolleys are run by PRT. In the Wasatch Front, it's UTA. Those agencies have little interest in becoming banks; they operate the fare cards mainly to keep fare payment easy, and they don't need to coordinate with anyone because everyone already joined into a single large transit agency.
- Metro areas with multiple transit agencies often have political differences that make coordination difficult. For example, in Long Island, NY, Nassau County's NICE bus system had legacy Metrocard fare payment that wasn't upgraded to OMNY until a month or two before Metrocard was completely ripped out and shut down. A rare exception to this would be the San Francisco Bay Area where there is an insane amount of political fragmentation and somehow they all wound up taking Clipper.
- A lot of Americans just never touch trains or buses enough to actually need a transit card.
- A lot of transit agencies are just surrendering to Visa & Mastercard and taking credit cards now anyway, even though transit fares are exactly the kind of microtransaction that is ill-suited for those networks.
Ironically, the best bet for an American-run payment network would actually be to nationalize E-ZPass[0]. In fact, in 2008 Congress passed a bill specifically mandating a unified toll payment system, but nothing came of it because the bill had no actual teeth. The main problem with this idea is that E-ZPass transponders won't fit in your wallet; you'd have to launch a separate form factor for an "E-ZPass Card" and at that point you run into all the same problems I just mentioned with making a unified transit fare system.
[0] E-ZPass is an RFID transponder system for toll payment that is very well-adopted along the east coast.
E-ZPass now has interoperability with the Central United States Interoperability Hub (which reaches as far west as Colorado and as far south as Texas). We're much closer to the point where you can drive anywhere with a single transponder than we were back then. The main thing missing now is California cooperating with anyone else.
I like the idea of my toll road account also being useful for public transit, if nothing else. But it's difficult to imagine toll road operators and public transit operators seeing a big incentive to cooperate in that way. Even though they're both "pay for transit," their intended/typical users are very different (people who can't/won't drive vs. people who not only drive but are privileged enough to pay for less traffic).
Halifax, NS used to have bridges where the toll transponders worked to pay for parking at the airport - super convenient. Alas, they've since removed the tolls on the bridges, so the transponders are now useless and traffic in the downtown is even worse.
So really, you only need one state to adopt your unified transit fee idea.
They are draining/milking the cow. At some point, they had significant value in quick information transmission when the internet and smart phones weren't really a thing. But now the only advantage is chargebacks/refunds which coincidentally, the experience there is being made shittier.
Still, not worth the 3-5% premium. Glad many merchants are starting to charge for credit card use and push back.
Very sure the amount those companies make yearly is worth saving.
> We tried to make a COVID-tracking app and spent $59.5 million, and it was an abject failure.
and then we just…kept letting those people stay in charge of spending our money.
and there’s a story of very expensive incompetency like that every quarter at minimum.
edit: just seeing now you're complaining about things being offtopic multiple times in this submission, without ever adding anything yourself. perhaps you could be part of the change you wish to see?
Since this exchange isn't of relevance, I won't respond further.
There is absolutely not reason that the government should have abdicated its core function and allowed a monopoly effectively have a license to print the dollar bills and rent them out for a cut from ever single economic transaction.
Imagine if the government had suggested that in addition to all the other criminal extortions called taxes, when you use dollar bills to purchase something, you have to pay a 3% dollar-bill-usage surcharge every time a bill changes hands.
But it was obfuscated that this constant drain and fraud was being perpetrated because the whole system became extremely financially lucrative to the very people whose responsibility it would have been to stop the crime; so it has continued since. The mob was in control of the police.
Yes let’s give the economy to the people that run the DMV.
I understand why this makes HN so upset. To the uninitiated nerd brain, these are just pieces of information flowing in and out of some computer system across networks. How expensive could it possibly be to actually send a packet to perform an online authorization with a bank's database? We all know the actual communication is ~free. What you are paying for is the maintenance of that connection, the security around it (e.g., PCI-DSS compliance), the ability to dispute that communication out-of-band, etc.
We could cut the cost of VISA's network in half or better if we could drop the compliance piece. I don't know how that would play out for the consumer segment though. How much economic activity would be curtailed if the average consumer had to start worrying about the security and stability of payment networks? Card skimming is a great example of this. Consumers will avoid certain retailers if they perceive an elevated risk of theft.
Then why are there so many of them? I like travelling and almost every country I go to has its own thing going on, often more than one. I lost count long ago
Once you have sane system like pix or upi, there is far less need for chargebacks and frauds.
The component parts have been up and running for years.
In the EU, their rake is capped by law, to an order of magnitude less than what they charge in the US. And it's still profitable. (Otherwise they would have pulled out of the market if they were losing money, obviously.)
The fraud prevention/etc you discuss benefits from economies of scale, but their fixed x% per transaction does not reflect those economies of scale. The free market has broken down here because of the difficulty for new market entrants.
I doubt the amount credit card companies charge in fees has much to do with the actual costs of running their service and are being inflated just because they can. My guess is that reducing the VISA's costs by letting them ignore security considerations would only mean that consumers get regularly screwed over while VISA continued to raise their fees every year.
We could also cut the cost to merchants by notably more than half if we dropped credit card rewards.
1) The government now has a full purchase record of every purchase you make
2) There is not a competing infrastructure where you can distribute your transactions across multiple companies to avoid a full profile building up
3) The government now has an incentive to eliminate un-surveilled options like cash and checks.
4) The government is now required to consistently legislate every single "he said, she said" fraud situation. Since it requires publicly available and consistently followed guidelines, this means everyone knows exactly which sorts of fraud work well
5) The government can trivially ban payments to anyone they disapprove of (porn, bitcoin, Iranian refugee charities, anyone who has the wrong opinion on Israel, etc. etc.)
6) The government can also wield all of this as a cudgel to threaten bad actors - do what we want or else we propose you go the Non-Payment List, we reveal your porn receipts, etc..
7) I don't even want to know what this does to the complexity of trying to use a card when traveling internationally
I'm not gonna say it's anywhere near perfect, but that friction significantly changes the average outcomes
Not much - Canada has debit/credit cards that use debit domestically and Visa or Mastercard internationally. They're the default type of debit card that many people get.
Does this idea apply outside of the credit card industry
The middleman business, intermediation, seems to have worked well for the so-called "tech" industry
Replacing low quality intermediaries with superior automated ones at massive scale with all the associated benefits.
This is the story of obsolescence and human history.
The coming end state of which has led to this transformation from the "big data" to AI paradigm.
Now so called "knowledge work" is itself being disintermediated. No need to worry about "bullshit" desk jobs anymore. They will be gone. It turns out a stochastic sentence guesser is superior to the average knowledge worker. This will only improve and become further operationalized, with accompanying safeguards and adversarial checks. At a certain point the value is already gained. The founders have taken their massive exits. Soon it's not so special anymore. In short, intelligence becomes a utility.
The end state of all of this is the same dichotomy our earliest ancestors had already forseen: apocalypse or utopia. In the same way that credit cards were once a cool idea, now they are trite and their continued privatization is merely a private tax on almost all transactions, and as such is rather undesirable. So turn it into a utility. Just like if we all survive the coming wars, the future will be one where compute based intelligence is a public good.
On the contrary, the middlemen in credit card transactions are providing a service whose value add is so obvious that it's basically invisible, because it's become so normal: financial intermediation. The credit card company is basically covering your debts for you until you pay your monthly bill--and shielding you from having to give every merchant you purchase from your bank account information. On the other side of the transaction, the credit card company is guaranteeing payment to the merchant, who now doesn't have to care about trying to assess the financial reliability of every customer. It's become so normal that we don't realize what a huge value add it is, as compared with, for example, trying to convince the grocery store to accept your check, which forces you to hand them your bank account information, and forces them to decide whether they think you (and your bank) are reliable enough that your check isn't rubber.
The customer can file a chargeback in which case they win almost every time even if they are scamming.
All I know is that for the chargebacks I've gotten for my saas, I submit a mountain of evidence that the user used it heavily and then filed a chargeback after the subscription ends.
Most of the times paypal will even agree the customer scammed, and they say they will talk to the credit card company on our behalf. However we have never once won one of these chargebacks if it was done with a credit card. Then paypal proceeds to remove the money from our account and tack on a chargeback fee.
Consumers shouldn't have to pay a fee to give someone money. Sellers shouldn't have to pay a fee to collect money. Security should be built into the system, not a luxury you're taxed for.
They should not be able to tithe all of society in perpetuity because they set up shop decades ago.
See also: the app store, telecoms, health insurance in the US
As I said, the fee you're paying if you use a credit card is for financial intermediation. That's not just "giving someone money" or "collecting money". There are other things included that have significant costs to provide.
> They provide a valuable service
And that means all your rhetoric about "charging a rake", "tax", "parasitic toll collection", "tithe", etc. is misplaced, because those things all imply that there is no valuable service being provided.
If you want to argue that there are ways to reduce the cost of the valuable service, for example by competition, that's one thing. But that's not the argument you're making.
3% of transactions is an incomprehensibly large amount of cash. The systems that exist to transact cash have been in place for decades already. Major countries have already developed their own payment systems because they understand the problem and the cost to society. Most of these are entirely free and AFAICT, they work just fine.
> for example by competition
Sure, if you set up a time machine. Even in that case, there would be no meaningful competition. Someone else would simply occupy the position in the middle of the intersection instead.
"Parasitic" and "toll collection" remain accurate descriptors. What about "entrenched" and "monopolistic"?
Can you quote the specific part you're referring to?
I think this is a fair request given the 15,000+ word length of the thing. Do you mean a particular abuse of the list contents (e.g. putting someone on it for revenge) or do you mean the overall pressure-campaign to get companies to adopt the list to prove they aren't Badguy Sympathizers?
Elaborate with specific examples of how the commentors in question are being "off-topic" and what you would consider topical for this thread, or please cease spamming actual off-topic meta-commentary quips.
I'll refer you to https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
I won't respond to you again.
You're missing the driver. It's not like Google cares or wants to change the name. They more or less have to given the public/private relationship and who is responsible for what. It's not Google's job to name bodies of water, it's not a credit card company's job to censor. And if you actually look, they aren't making that decision because they want to. They are often acting on behalf of the government.
Payment companies are even more enmeshed with the state. They often do these things to simply comply with what the government tells them to do or to get ahead of government telling them what to do. Like with some of the anti-pornography laws being drafted or passed in certain American states.
The private/public distinction really needs to come under more scrutiny here. The credit card duopoly is very much tied in with state power. This has only accelerated post 9/11 as the Treasury's mandate increasingly shifted to "national security".
Payment processors are censors because the government is. Just like Flock the government can't do certain things so it contracts with a third party. They then have an interest in protecting/promoting that party. Flock is a snoop because the police are snoops. If Flock does it and the government merely pays for it well it's not a violation of your rights. Your rights protect you against the government, not against Flock. It's the same legal backdoor. A payment processor doesn't care what you buy, why would they? They make money so long as you keep transacting. It's the government that cares.
This same dynamic happens all over the American economy because the private/public distinction can get increasingly amorphous. Your credit card is as much government spyware as your phone. But understand - the problem is not the companies, it's the majority of your fellow citizens who either don't care or actually do endorse censorship. Unless you have a solution for that trying to blame credit card companies for the problem unfortunately misses the mark. You might as well suggest Google have the authority to name bodies of water.
Why have almost all European leaders come to grovel before an American President they clearly despise?
When you can defend your own continent without the sight of your governments prostrating themselves to such a man I'll take your claim more seriously. Europe has been asked for decades now to act more responsibly. Now you are being forced. Instead of blaming America let's see if you guys can cobble together a path forward with waning American guarantees without recreating the internecine strife that led to the American intervention in the first place.
Nothing I am seeing out of Europe gives confidence over the next decade. Hold your own governments accountable.
Naturally the “other side” feels the same and returns the favor, so we end up in this death spiral of ignorant people reacting emotionally to complex issues they lack the patience to work through as a society.
Tl:dr there is no shortcut to changing society, any such victories will be short term and costly.
They don't have to but they can, but monopolies and oligopolies don't have to and don't play by the same rules and they tend to have a lot of political and soft power. Especially in Google's case, it's not a stick a floating in the river and going wherever the current takes it. Brin and Page are (allegedly) sentient human beings and they still control the majority of the company. Maybe they couldn't pull of exactly what Musk is doing but there is a huge amount of space in between that and doing nothing.
I'm not alleging a conspiracy. It's almost self evident emergence given the nature of a company and a government. What is Google to gain for resisting the name change? Nothing. Status quo they benefit from a service that names things according to government convention. Their map wouldn't be very useful otherwise. If the government starts renaming things why do they care? This isn't some cult in the middle of nowhere, the federal government changed the name. If liberals don't like it tough maybe learn how to not choke away another election. Why would Google fight the government on the name change? There is no upside and it's not something they care about. More importantly it's not their job.
The same logic applies to credit cards. You think the MasterCard CEO is gonna risk his plush paycheck so a handful of degenerates can beat off? He doesn't care. It's not his job to decide that question and he doesn't want it to be. If the government wants to nationalize him however, then of course he will care. It's called a trade off and ultimately all successful people learn to navigate them. It doesn't change the fundamental truth in my point that many people blame corporations for alleged sins that in truth are caused by governments. The "Gulf of Mexico" thing and "credit card censorship" being two of many examples of this confusion in our discourse.
- Many banks are not OK with that
- Even if you find one who does, finding an Open Banking provider to be that middleman is a nightmare
Short of working with the financial conduct authority to be your own financial institution, it's makes getting paid a pain if you want to accept adult content (even if you have all the safeguards and comply with all UK law!). I can't see anything but it being indirect pressure to censor, and to push smaller players out of the market - such that it's easier to regulate the industry.
It kind of is.
If the US executive branch published an order renaming every street in America to "America Street", I suspect Google would not update Google Maps to reflect that unless the government compelled them to do so.
Google has made a choice about where they're placing the bar for voluntary action.
If "the power to tax is the power to destroy" justifies insulating religion from government financial leverage, then the power to financially deplatform should raise the same concern for speech.
Maybe we hear about it because, it's right in the US' backyard and the biggest country there is Brazil from which pix comes from. All these payment systems threaten visa and Mastercard but pix is the largest in the US' backyard because the country it comes from, Brazil, is the largest there.
And it's also government run, dun dun dun. The us hates anything that is government run. That's why they hate china and communists and socialism so much.
Evidence of high levels of power political pressure - US latest 25% tariff pressure came out explicitly around this topic - https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/brazil-us-clash-ove...
With visa and Mastercard you pay transaction fees and rent for a card terminal aka card reader, which are lower or non existent with these homegrown or local P2P payment systems. Outside western developed countries aka the US and the richest European countries like France, Germany, that's enough to stop using visa and Mastercard.
I used to by all my PC parts from a shop that had a 5% discount for cash purchases. It was the sort of shop that was just a counter with all the merch hidden in the back. I don't know how they kept the CC companies from knowing but maybe 40% of their business was cash purchases (circa 2019).
We must be very different consumers.
Also, many places already do effectively this, they charge a surcharge for using a card.
It used to be here in the US, but there was enough violations that they stopped putting it in the terms.
But, looking into this, it looks like some states have made it illegal. I'm curious how well that's enforced.
For those on the other side of the balance, maybe it would be.
Either way, I can't imagine many shops doing it, even if the economics makes sense. They'd rather the immediate and direct pad to the bottom line.
This will mean, its harder for competing payment services to function. And its easier for the big credit card companies to up the % they charge without the public noticing, or blaming them directly.
It was fascinating watching the media coverage, twisting themselves in knots to miss these points while cheering how we were 'standing up to the big cc companies', it was actually quite cringe-worthy at times.
I could see Debit Cards being replaced by direct transfers.
The issue is what happens if who you pay too does not provide the srvice or just runs off with the money.
Under UK Law the customer can deal with the Credit Card issuer and get their money back with a direct payment it is npot always possible.
For debit cards I think the issue will refund if fraudelent but might take a battle. With direct payments the customer has a much harder job.
its cheaper but customers lose protection for doing it, and as its illegal (yes, against the law) to offer them a discount for using debit cards, cash, or direct payments they have no reason to.
But the problem is that if you use it to pay for a service and do not get the service you can only claim off who you paid and that requires taking them to court while Credit Cards just require phoning up the card provider. Debit cards are between the two.
I have not actually used it. I have paid some people (mechanic, gardener) with a bank transfer which works well thanks to faster payments being near instant.
I had no idea how Costco or Home Depot or Walt Disney worked ...
Yet the acquirers seem to be always absent from these lawsuits.
Network gets swipe fees, and a percentage of the interchange Issuers get majority of interchange, and carrying interest and fees Acquirer gets the markup plus whatever admin/maintenance fees
Here's what I found for a reference: https://cmspi.com/back-to-basics-card-network-models-and-glo... which tracks with my experience.
I'm open to be corrected though.
That 30 cents - is what's often ignored but makes up a disproportionate amount of the fee.
On a $30 transaction, paying 30 cents is equivalent to a 1% fee.
So Stripe on a $30 transaction is effectively 3.9% in fees (on a $30 transaction).
Interchange (which goes to the issuer), would only be approx 1.75% (of the 3.9% fee charged by Stripe).
Trying to understand what you mean by disproportionate here. Are the majority of transactions well under $10?
So it is not based on a portion of the fee (a percentage of it). Disproportionate.
This is bad because it systematically penalizes small transactions, which a proportionate fee does not do.
For good or bad, a lot of studies have confirmed that cards have overwhelmingly increased consumer spending.
I think the far stronger case is that the industry has no actual incentive to fix the underlying fraud that they are charging merchants to fight. They have done a lot of work to institutionalize the problematic infrastructure and make it almost impossible for startups or outsiders to fix.
It’s the anticompetitive actions causing the deadweight loss, not the digital nature of transactions.
There is a lot of psychological awareness created when you have to pull a couple singles vs. a Benjamin out of your wallet vs tap card for all amounts.
So the hope is that new or one of the other brokers step up and hopefully their ethics are better.
Amex does this as well and it’s a mixture of internal opinions of executives, board, major shareholders, as well as the US federal government just telling them (see operation chokepoint for just one variation), as well as chargeback and fraud rates in some industries just validating personally held opinions
If you break up the Visa and Mastercard cartels, does this San Diego pizzeria then have to decide what cards to accept on a bank-by-bank basis?
The European Union caps consumer card interchange fees at 0.2% for debit cards and 0.3% for credit cards
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/fees-for-...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durbin_amendment
This is explicitly about credit card fees.
Broadly, the interlocking restraints set and maintained by the defendants have forced merchants that accept any Visa and Mastercard credit card to accept all such cards, regardless of cost, thereby eliminating any incentive for issuing banks to compete by lowering their fees, the suit says. The lawsuit claims the challenged restraints have also prevented merchants from being able to steer customers to lower-cost payment options—for instance, by surcharging based on a customer’s use of a particular card. These and other restraints have prevented competition among issuing banks and other credit card networks, allowing the financial giants to raise their fees every year “without consequence,” the case alleges.
That is the crux of the problem though. By adding fees and then contractually forbidding merchants from passing those fees on to credit card customers, it is forcing non card users to pay for card users fees since the fees are embedded in prices. Plus they're even giving card users kickbacks in the form of points. So non credit card users end up paying more credit card fees than credit card users which is nonsense.
> So non credit card users end up paying more credit card fees than credit card users which is nonsense.
The business just makes more money on cash transactions. It would be interesting to find if the cost of cash handling/losses is comparable to the card processing fees.
It is no longer permitted for payment networks to prohibit discounts for cash or surcharging use of credit.
A few of the merchants I use regularly have credit surcharges now. It's pretty common at gas stations near me. Almost all business with my state or local government has a 3% fee for card use.
Fundamentally, I agree with the lawsuit. Logistically, this seems like a bit of a nightmare. No longer will it be "CC purchases will have a 2% extra fee." Instead it will be "If you have a Chase Spark card, the fee will be 4%. If you have a Costco Visa card, it will be...".
and don't pretend like it's not possible, it's obviously possible: take the system and lower the fee to something proportional to the price of providing the service
if credit card rewards programs have to go to make it economically viable -- awesome, that would be a second win.
The current status quo is a result of free association. If people prefer to have credit card debt or use rewards programs poorly then I have no issue with continuing in this manner.
it's possible that with the fees removed cards still have rewards because the premium cards still want your business (they have other mechanisms for making money than just interest + fees, cf https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/how-credit-cards-make...)
however I maintain that credit card rewards are a net drain on society. Paying for things should just be paying for them, not a complicated system that generates fake money points that you can then turn around and spend in bizarre ways if you remember to. The whole system is stupid.
I totally agree. I propose the opposite of what this lawsuit is fighting: let's merge Visa and Mastercard. Throw in AmEx while you're at it. Since the concepts of competition, interoperability and standards are too foreign to people and having too many types of payment processors is confusing, we need to have a single payment processor. That way we can grumble at only a single party when they jack up processing fees for editing database rows or straight up debank us. Efficiency!
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A friend of mine owns a restaurant that is pretty remote so lower business. He told me he doesn't take credit cards because he would be paying them a percentage for everything.
It is kind of like the mafia to a small guy like him.
I think he does do a few phone apps.
A waitress at another cash-only restaurant told me, worse than customers who hear they won't take credit cards are the apple pay folks. "They really get annoyed when they don't get their apple pay"
Franchises don't care. They can raise prices monthly or even dynamic price if they want to.
Kind of sucks for society because lots of the best/greatest restaurants are not franchises.
A lot? Not sure about that.
>I think he does do a few phone apps.
Not if he's cash only he's not.
The reality is that for most businesses, accepting credit cards, with their fees, results in more revenue overall (more customers).
If your business is low volume, cash only makes more sense.
Depending on which sources you believe, the cost of handling cash can actually exceed credit card merchant fees.
Many cashless businesses, including bars and restaurants, do it specifically because handling cash is expensive if you actually do a full accounting for it.
I get what she's say, but it is kind of a weird comparison, because Apple Pay is more-or-less payment network agnostic. You can pay via credit, debit, or transportation card (and possibly others that I haven't used) on Apple Pay.
In the US you even have Apple Cash which is pretty close to digital cash equivalent... not really workable for a business with the $2k/week limit though.
If merchant fees are < 1% if I use debit and ~ 4% if I use a rewards card, but merchant rules (set by the networks and enforced by the acquiring banks) say they can't accept amex and surcharge rewards cards but not debit cards, they can't reduce their costs by pushing me towards debit cards or non-rewards cards.
There's some other things they're challenging that could allow for more competition.
Removing the 'No-Bypass Rules' could allow for lower cost clearing if the acquiring bank is the same as the issuing bank and the potential for lower cost clearing when the the acquiring and issuing banks have a clearing relationship outside of the major networks.
Removing the 'No-Competing-Marks Rules' could allow for a card to be Visa + some upstart lower cost network; if the merchant supports it, great, if not, they can still process payment through Visa. I think US law requires ATM cards to be usable through at least two distinct networks, and there's at least some diversity in ATM networks as a result.
I guess the point being there is probably a better reason for the high fees than the company trying to be anticompetitive, Or perhaps better said as a better reason for being anti competitive than high fees. Monopolistic lock in? Regulatory Capture? The problem is, that this blames the government instead of the company.
> A class action lawsuit alleges Visa, Mastercard and some of America's largest banks have conspired to artificially inflate merchants' credit card transaction fees.
If they didn't conspire together and actually competed then they wouldn't be able to charge such high fees as they would surely try to undercut each other.
Any new competitor could spell the end for them, so making it astronomically difficult to onboard enough people is so far working out for them.
Both are true though right? The company needs to be held accountable for price collusion by the government. Government not acting due to lobbying (i.e. bribes).
This means that the issuer can manipulate the consumer into doing things bad for the business, and the business has no way to respond to the very high fees it is charged.
However, starting up a credit card company from scratch is, extremely capital intensive, extremely bureaucratically heavy, and all the helpful finance players are in bed with or are the institutions you would be upending.
Merchants would probably help, but inevitably would take ownership and steer the ship into their harbor (not consumers). A system where merchants own the payment system would probably be even worse.
Canada has a debit card network called Interac. Last I checked, the transaction fee was typically a flat $0.10 CAD (~$0.075 USD). There are shops that do debit or cash only, but it's not the norm (typically restaurants and niches with high chargeback risks). I am curious what keeps credit card acceptance high in Canada, despite a very widespread mature card network. I assume part of it is that consumer debt increases spending volume overall, but that can't be the primary reason I feel.
Then, credit card companies take some of their profits and give them back to customers in the form of reward programs.
So we all end up paying more for nothing, but the incentives make it a difficult collective action problem. I don't know why retailers don't take advantage of their right to pass fees through to customers. That would solve the problem. I guess it would make some stupid people angry. And maybe there is some other pressure the credit card companies are using.
https://oliverbatemandoesthework.substack.com/p/the-work-of-...
"We have a case pending right now in the Ninth Circuit. It was a privacy lawsuit against Google. A journalist, not a trial lawyer, determined that you could turn off tracking in Google Maps and it was not supposed to share your data, and then learned that Google was sharing it anyway, whether you turned it off on your phone or turned it off in the app. State attorneys general came in, fined Google a bunch of money, and forced Google to stop. And simultaneously there is a follow-on class action built on the journalists’ research, and that has settled.
The settlement is that Google creates a fund of sixty-two million dollars. The lawyers get nineteen million and the class gets zero. The rest is a big slush fund for a set of left-wing groups. Nothing requires the recipients to be left-wing other than that being what the attorneys chose to present to the court. They do it partly because some of these organizations are clients of the law firm, some of them have lead partners of the firm sitting on their boards, some of them are the attorneys’ alma maters, and some of them are just left-leaning outfits that are promising to do left-wing things. The class is two hundred million people. Maybe a hundred fifty million of them would not like what is being done in their name with their money.
And the judge decides who gets paid. This judge was very excited about getting to stop being a judge and start being a grant administrator with a big pot of philanthropy. We said, why are these unrelated organizations, which are not even unrelated, they are affiliated with class counsel, getting the class’s money? If the plaintiffs’ lawyers want to support the ACLU, it should come out of their pockets and not the class’s pockets. It is perfectly feasible to distribute that money to the class. Much smaller settlements get distributed to similar class sizes all the time. You can complain that if you divided it evenly among every single class member it would be a tiny amount and not worth paying out, but you do not have to do it that way, and most class actions are not done that way. Most class actions settle for less than a dollar per class member. You create a claims process, let class members sign up if they want the money, and divide it that way."
I've been using Same Day ACH in all my businesses for over a decade and the transaction fees are about $0.30/transaction and the dispute window is 60 days for PPD (personal checking accounts) and 3 days for CCD (commercial check accounts) and you get the money the same day. It beats paying visa/mastercard percentage fees and the 120 day dispute windows where people can literally get their money back four months later for work that was already performed. By using Same Day ACH, we get the money from the customer faster, save potentially millions of dollars in fees, and reduce dispute windows from four months to 3 days (for B2B sales)