Comment by nephihaha | Hacker News Reader

Comment by nephihaha | Hacker News Reader

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There is a vast difference between helping an elderly neighbour mow their lawn and dumping lots of free content online. I've been running a writing group for four years now. I'm not paid to do that, and I set it up myself, but it is not putting someone else out of a job, and we support a small business. It also helps the writers, and some of our number have been published and are making sales as a result of being in the group.

It is self-centred to expect everyone to work for you for free. That is why we now have AI destroying creative industries, because it has become normalised not to pay people for using their content.

In parts of Africa the local textile and clothing industries have been destroyed by large amounts of free clothing being offloaded onto them by the developed world. This has been done with good intent, but it means that Africans have been put out of work, and so that they cannot sell their clothes on the international market. If those areas could develop a clothing industry it would bring much needed money into their economy and make them less dependent on onerous bank loans.

"were you under the impression that creatives were well paid before the internet?"

Yes, they were being better paid. Musicians had unions for one. Spotify and YouTube do not pay fair rates for their music, yet rake in from advertising. Old radio stations paid better.

This has been a problem in bars and venues. They tell lies like 'it will look good on your CV/resumé" or "it will get you attention". But if many of them are willing do it unpaid, it means a lot of the pubs won't pay anyone to play.

You're jumping though hoops to ignore the original point. Maybe try re-reading how this thread began.

Many people on here are normalising the idea of unpaid work. Imagine doing so while having a debt agency after you. It is a luxury to those who have the time and money to do so.

As I have said elsewhere, I know lesser known writers who have released their book for free on Kindle and gained nothing in return. (No reviews but certainly downloads.) All that resulted in was someone getting a free book. It is not a pattern to be encouraged.

> Many people on here are normalising the idea of unpaid work. Imagine doing so while having a debt agency after you. It is a luxury to those who have the time and money to do so.

So? People aren't a monolith. Maybe some can afford to give things away for free. Maybe some are living on the poverty line, but for whatever reason think the tradeoff of spreading something to more people (including those who can't afford to pay for it) is worth it if it means further reach for any number of reasons, including self-serving name recognition or selfless spreading of information they think is important to spread.

> All that resulted in was someone getting a free book. It is not a pattern to be encouraged.

Once again, you're trapped in your mindset and seem entirely blind to the aforementioned profit brainwashing. Other paradigms exist, with many benefits you're apparently still incapable of comprehending.

"Many people" does not imply a monolith. It does sound like there are a lot of rich kids on here though who support this. If you turn a paid job into an unpaid hobby then people can't make a living off it.

"Once again, you're trapped in your mindset and seem entirely blind to the aforementioned profit brainwashing. Other paradigms exist, with many benefits you're apparently still incapable of comprehending."

Tell this to your utility companies and any debt agencies you encounter and see how far you get with it. Try speaking to tax collectors about paradigms, brain washing and mindsets. See if your landlord or mortgage lender will accept a paradigm shift in place of monthly rent.

The only people who can get anywhere with that are people who already have money or some sugar daddy (or mummy.) Many of us have to work to survive. Ever heard of the working class?

Now I'm curious, are you for or against public libraries? From your arguments, it appears that you would be against?

I support public libraries. They create great third spaces, PAY for their books and pay for their staff. They have helped educate the public and increase literacy. I oppose the casualisation of libraries as well. Some places are trying to replace paid staff with volunteers if they are not trying to axe them.

Have libraries done some questionable stuff? Yes. But generally they are good.

My point about writing groups at libraries was that the people who run them get paid anyway. Nothing wrong with that.

> If you turn a paid job into an unpaid hobby then people can't make a living off it.

The invisible hand only applies here if the goods are identical, and since we're talking about unique works like books, they are definitely not equal. What one another charges does not dictate what another author charges.

> The only people who can get anywhere with that are people who already have money or some sugar daddy (or mummy.) Many of us have to work to survive. Ever heard of the working class?

Wow, do you have any idea how many open source software contributors are living on Ramen and are on the side of the working class?

"Wow, do you have any idea how many open source software contributors are living on Ramen and are on the side of the working class?"

Maybe those types are eating ramen because they aren't getting paid for their work? There's a thought. In some places if you get caught doing that while on unemployment benefits, you will get those stripped from you too.

I don't like our economic system much either. It's run on creating debt. You have to have money and support from elsewhere or you sink.

Or maybe they choose a simple life because they find greater fulfillment elsewhere. Like the feeling you get when you're part of something greater than yourself.

You're romanticising poverty there. Come on. Who feels part of something greater when there are bodies demanding money off you?

I've been homeless. I didn't find that fulfilling or rationalise it with some Zen monk shtic. I saw it for what it was.

> Who feels part of something greater when there are bodies demanding money off you?

Anybody who is part of something greater, and who has learned to not depend on various addictions, wealth signaling, etc for greater fulfillment. A lot of this is in the mind, and really just a matter of adopting healthy perspectives on life.

> I've been homeless.

I've been very close to it, so I can empathize with the struggle. I'm not suggesting people should be homeless and give themselves away. Just that most people require far less to be happy than society has conditioned them to believe, but that doesn't become obvious until you shift your perspective.

If you're truly interested on how somebody might get there, consider giving this a look:

The Courage to Be Disliked by Ichiro Kishimi

> It is self-centred to expect everyone to work for you for free.

But literally nobody is suggesting anyone, let alone everyone should be expected to work for free or do anything they don't want to.

> I've been running a writing group for four years now. I'm not paid to do that, and I set it up myself, but it is not putting someone else out of a job

You are competing with people who run paid writing workshops. It puts people out of a job to the same extent as the author posting his book on his website did. I personally think that neither does, but i'm not sure how you can come to the conclusion that one does but not another without being a hypocrite. Hell, you even used teacher as one of your examples in an earlier post.

"But literally nobody is suggesting anyone, let alone everyone should be expected to work for free or do anything they don't want to."

Most people given the choice between something free and something paid for, will go for the free item.

It is not just a matter of consent, but a market for ordinary people to make some money. Being able to work for free means you have to have the time and money to do so, otherwise you risk getting into debt yourself.

"You are competing with people who run paid writing workshops. It puts people out of a job to the same extent as the author posting his book on his website did."

Within thirty years (far longer than my group has been around) I've never witnessed anyone else run writing workshops within my local area who wasn't already working for the local libraries. They still do. So, that isn't the case — the others are all getting paid out of the council tax whether anyone turns up or not. I keep pretty close tabs on such things. At least I've helped other people publish and sell their books. It's helped my friend's café that was struggling financially after the government lockdown and may not have still been here without it. That's helped save her livelihood, and kept someone in work. Because of that she's been able to set up a catering arm. Far better than debt. So yes, it has had a positive impact on the local area, when so many places are turning into ghost towns and deserts.

That is for a short time every week. But I'd prefer not to work for nothing most of the time. I have had debt agencies after me in the past so it is not a luxury I can afford all the time, nor can most people. I have know people who make a living off writing, and many more who can't... But I'd prefer at least some people could. Some of the latter group put their books out for free, they got downloaded and they made little or no sales off that. (Not because they were all awful either.)

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