Ukraine Can't Stop Russia's Jet-Powered Shahed Drone | Hacker News Reader

Ukraine Can't Stop Russia's Jet-Powered Shahed Drone

spectrum.ieee.org

20 pointsrbanffy41 comments

Drone’s name is Geran-5. It is also made in Russia, not in Iran. Nor does Iran produce such a (or somehow similar) drone. Nor does Iran claim any rights to it.

Calling it Shahed is a very weird propaganda twist.

Iran does manufacture a lot of drones, including similar looking ones.

Just repeating. This drone is named Geran-5. It is produced in Russia. Iran doesn’t produce such a jet drone at all.

Renaming another country’s weapon is a very weird propaganda move. Why would anyone do that?

Good question, why did Russia rename the Shahed-131 to Geran-1? Those are allegedly Iranian made, and Geran-2 is allegedly a slightly modified Shahed-136. Of course, as they keep modifying them they slowly become their own thing, but there's a clear tech ancestry.

Russia renamed it because it chose to. This is a general rule: if you produce something, you name it.

For example, the Storm Shadow missile in the UK is essentially the same as Scalp missile in France. Yet whoever produces chooses a name.

Renaming a Russian made drone is WEIRD. You can only name the weapons you make.

It is not weird to call something by the name of something that is much more widely known, that it is closely related to. It is maybe a little bit weird to get really angry online about that, unless you are upset about the association being reinforced.

I am not saying this drones is Iran made (it is most likely built by gang pressed teenagers in Alabuga like other Geran drones) just that Iran has a bunch of drone designs, including jet powered ones:

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2019/09/the-oryx-handbook-of-i...

Also would not be surprised if there was knowledge sharing either previously when their let them clone the main Shahed variant or even to this day.

"Drone" is an overloaded term. I'm not sure what someone means when they say "drone" (an FPV drone? an MQ-9?) When someone mentions "Shahed" I immediately know what's being talked about. It disambiguates what's being discussed.

Many also describe the US-made LUCAS drone as a Shahed clone, which clear up what role this system fills.

What is the resemblance between Geran-5 (a jet drone, essentially a rocket) and Shahed/Lucas drones after all?

It's role is far closer to that of Shahed/LUCAS drones than that of FPV drones or MQ-9s.

The original drone design was based on prop driven shaheed drones, which were both supplied directly by Iran as well as being manufactured (and further developed) in Russia.

Calling it a propaganda twist ignores how the thing came to be.

Ok, but Iran's now infamous Shahed drone design is also not indigenous either, but based on a German drone design from the 1980s[1] which Germany never deployed because the Cold War ended soon after, but Iran found a use for such a design.

Everyone keeps iterating on someone else's previous work. That's how it works.

[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drohne-Anti-Radar

First Geran drones are based on Shaheds but are not Shaheds. This is not how they are named.

The latest jet drones being discussed in this article have nothing in common with Shaheds at all.

It's like calling a ball point pen a biro. Not that weird. Or propagandic.

I figure this is to support the faith that Russia is running out of ordnance, which holds strong since the spring of 2022, when it was first proclaimed [1]. So Russia has to use Iranian drones and missiles, Korean shells, and even some tyres off Alibaba on their vehicles [2].

1. https://newsinfo.inquirer.net/1573535/russia-running-out-of-...

2. https://www.tyrepress.com/2022/03/are-tyre-issues-hampering-...

In an economic battle, I continue wondering why Ukraine has interceptors which detonate instead of being armed with projectiles. High speed cameras and low latency bridgewire ignition, coupled with AI targeting should enable single shot targeting with high probability of success. Multiple reusable interceptors seems like a better solution than expendable. At the same build rate, the number of interceptors per incoming drone will grow over time, instead of maintaining equivalence.

I think the current interceptors are optimized for one way attack - just enough flight time to catch the target and detonate. Any extra systems (such as guns or recovery hardware) make the interceptor more expensive.

Also these kamikaze drones are not flying in huge flocks like WW2 bomber that tried to cover each other with machine guns - even if a gun armed interceptor shoots one down, it might not be able to intercept another during the raid.

Some bigger, L-39 sized jet drones on the other hand could be quite capable, possibly launching separate one-way interceptors on top of guns.

More moving parts would mean a much more complex system which would heighten maintenance cost and likely lower successful interceptions per working system significantly.

I'm sure the Ukrainians can draw two curves and see where they intercept

I've wondered the same thing. After watching the footage of some of these drone intercepts I realized the camera view interceptors are very erratic. My guess is that shooting a drone down from another cheap interceptor drone is just too difficult to do reliably. I understand that the cost of the interceptors are preferable than the cost of letting them hit their targets, and I understand that they are still an order of magnitude cheaper than the long-range Geran drones they are shooting down.

Given that they show footage of men shooting down similar drones from airplanes, perhaps they can eventually build a larger more stable platform with a more reliable aim using projectiles.

I also wondered the same until I saw that Rheinmetall produced that type of defense system you describe (I think in 2024 or so). And I think that except for Rheinmetall, nobody gives them this type of weapon (seems other countries have something similar), but it's probably a handful of them deployed in maybe very few locations.

I don't think it's that simple to build it, otherwise they would have all done it.

Edit: it's called rheinmetall skyranger.

>it's called rheinmetall skyranger

The problem with that is that behind the Rheinmetall brand name it's actually made by Switzerland's former Oerlikon before the Rheinmetall acquisition, and Switzerland doesn't sell military gear to countries currently at war due to its neutrality status. So for Ukraine it might as well be vaporware as they aint getting it (officially).

Interesting, didn't know it was originally made in Switzerland.

However, I knew that Rheinmetall was going to/delivered the skyranger. [0]

[0]: https://en.defence-ua.com/news/rheinmetall_develops_automati...

I assume the Skyrangers delivered to Ukraine are gonna be laundered Swiss-made AA guns, imported into Germany, assembled in Germany and exported as a "German Made" weapon system, to get around Swiss export restrictions

$100k a drone.

Ukraine needs Patriot or an equivalent air to ground capability, but those are extremely expensive.

It sounds like the prop-driven shaheds were being intercepted with prop-driven drones piloted manually? I suppose that shows the relevant technology for guidance has been kept secret enough that it's not instantly being cloned, or is more expensive than human operators.

Guidance to hit a stationary target is easier than to hit a moving target. Especially considering the shaheds aren't particularly exact about what stationary target they hit.

Well, the propeller interceptors worked - it forced the Russians to upgrade their attack drones to use jet engines, making them more expensive. Still an issue if they get through but also a question if they can do a big swarm the same way the could with the lawnmower engine type.

Also I expect similar Ukrainian adaptation using some sort of jet propulsion or even rocket assistance to counter them. Not to mention getting a jet powered response in the Russian direction.

Using a $2M PAC-2 or PAC-3 to stop a $100k drone is beyond idiotic.

Patriots and similar SAM/ABMs are best reserved for intercepting ballistic missiles rather than frittering them away pointlessly like the current US regime.

Wy would one shhot 4M Patriots at 80k drones? Just to get rid of them like the Saudis did?

Its really depressing watching Ukraine get ragged by a larger nation while all its neighbors sit on the sidelines and watch. Deploy troops to Ukraine it wont trigger nuclear war.

Or more usefully they could send some fighter jets over Ukraine to shoot down the incoming drones and missiles like they did for Israel.

Not a good strategy. The drones are cheaper 1:5 than AIM-9 missiles. They need some cheap low payload IR based interceptor if those engines run hot. Probably another fixed wing drone.

You're talking about APKWS rockets. 70mm rockets (practically free) equipped with a laser seeker.

> The drones are cheaper 1:5 than AIM-9 missiles.

Given the relative sizes of the economies involved, that's still perfectly fine.

Next to the cost of the aviation program for providing the platform to launch those from, it likely hardly registers.

> Deploy troops to Ukraine it wont trigger nuclear war.

I’m not as eager as you are to test the resolve of Putin re: nuclear weapons. Once the button is pressed, the game is over for everyone.

You have no other option, really. If you play chicken, you open yourself up to endless blackmail. If you're going to take a stand eventually, it's better to do it sooner than later, because if your adversary knows that you will eventually draw a line, allowing them to discover that line gradually encourages further pressure on you. Establishing the boundary early makes the threat more credible and reduces the incentive to test it.

It's like standing up to a bully the first time he pushes you, instead of giving in and calming yourself that one day you'll stand up to him. The Putins and Trumps of this world are simple creatures; such middle-school analogies describe them well.

Putin isnt going to nuke over a defensive deployment of troops. As long as they dont cross over into russia its not an escalation. He has already broken this line by bringing in NK troops and EU spec ops have broken this line by operating in ukraine the past 4 years.

Is not the whole plan to put troops as meat shields and hope that Russia will be afraid to attack them? So yeah, Putin won't nuke countries that deployed troops but those troops are going to become targets as same as Ukrainian troops and mercenaries are now. And then what? Send more troops? More of the same result. Retaliatory strike on Russia? Nuke.

What would troops even do there? Join the meat grinder?

Most Eastern European nations agreed on the first month of the war - Ukraine needs long-range weapons.

Russia must be stopped.

It would refresh the Ukrainian positions and allow troops to rotate more often. It'd also make it near impossible for russia to take more ground.

It just seems like everyone is re-inventing the tech of the 50s and 60s, but at a fraction of the cost by using a completely different set of parts, supply chains and cost structures. And massive eventual volumes.

My guess is the Ukrainians will put a rocket on their interceptor drones, and develop some sort of radar or heat seeking guidance system. Perhaps we'll end up with an interesting hybrid interceptor missile that uses electric propulsion for part of the journey?

This is outdated, sensational misinformation. Ukraine has already tested a new type of unnamed high-speed interceptor (with a unique center crosshair icon) and has the video to prove it has taken down Geran-5. Jake Broe, Suchomimus, Artur Rehi, MAGYARBIRDS, and UNITED24 have good Ukraine updates.

What's difficult for Ukraine to stop is Geran-5 manufacturing that is expanding and going deep underground, and 1.6T RUB ($25B USD) will be invested in this sector this year. The rest of Russia's traditional military-industrial complex including feeder supply chain subcontractors in above-ground buildings are easy pickings. Recently, a FLIR sensor manufacturer used by multiple cruise missiles and surface-to-air missiles was obliterated by 4 FP-1's. Ukraine is getting good OSINT and other intel on Russia's military contractors and going after them one-by-one to halt the ability of Russia to produce complete weapon systems or produce replacements/spare parts.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com