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Comment by gbriel | Hacker News Reader

Not only should we be critical of how Israel wages this war, but we should also recognize the role of Hamas. Deliberate killing of non-combatants, civilian abductions, unguided rocket and mortar fire, use of human shields, perfidy and disguise, all war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Most of us here in the US don't have to worry about threats of terrorism like this. It doesn't excuse Israel's (many) war crimes but often we don't acknowledge the horror of Hamas on Israel and Palestinians when talking about this conflict.

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But the West does acknowledge it, almost exclusively. Any criticism of Israel's war crimes are followed by "But do you agree that Israel has a right to exist?" and "Do you condemn Hamas and the attack they conducted in Oct 7"? Mainstream media only shows Hamas actions, and only recently started highlighting Israel's war crimes due to increased souring of their reputation among audiences. Hamas actions also shouldn't be taken in isolation, the atrocities of October 7 didn't happen in a vacuum, but as a reaction to a conflict that has been happening for almost 80 years that is overwhelmingly one sided.

> But do you agree that Israel has a right to exist?

I've started to think this worry about a particular nation's right to exist is really a great rhetorical trick: nobody is particularly upset the nation of east Germany ceased to exist, and you don't hear Erdogan opposing Kurdish independence with "Doesn't the Turkie have a right to exist?"

There is a basic human right of self determination, but if you think what follows is that you should get your own nation then look at how the soviet policies of providing exactly that worked out. They even created a the Jewish Autonomous Oblast in the far east!

Pin-pointing Hamas and Oct 7 is pretty much a logical trap, because Netanyahu and Hamas had been symbiotic -- which put them in the very same ballpark. Both enjoyed their own external threats, and, through that, established strong political influence.

The one difference is that Israel always had been able to control the situation for decades to its liking, while Hamas had been passively reaping the hatred that Israel had sown -- only until October 7.

So, Israelis fearing Hamas? That's a horror they created through their democracy, purely by abusing powerless people. Total hypocrisy.

Israel is doing colonial violence to steal land and do ethnic cleansing. Hamas is doing anti-colonial violence to free themselves from people oppressing them.

You could argue that Israel is doing this because Hamas is so bad, but then you look at what Israel is doing in the other part of palestine not controlled by Hamas? Daily pogroms and violent ethnic oppression of all kinds.

The problem is that Israel is based on ethnic supremacy. The way the victims (the palestinians) react is not relevant.

A new Haaretz investigstion found that on October 7 Hamas offered to release the hostages. Israel said no. That's because Israel needs the hostages to be hostages as a casus belli.

I am just tired of having to sort through the endless half-truths people post over and over. Can't you just get at least the information right ?

The ALLEGED offer was to release hostages under 18 and over 50 IN EXCHANGE of stopping the ground incursions and changes to Al-aqsa mosk access

Was it a reasonable offer ? Should they have accepted it ? I don't care, I just care that you get your (alleged) facts right.

3 Israeli hostages were released on that day. Israel shot them. Israel doesn't give a shit about hostages.

Yet another one-liner with no context. How dare you reply to my comment with this ?

You don't give a shit about truth

> but often we don't acknowledge the horror of Hamas on Israel and Palestinians when talking about this conflict

Often we don't acknowledge the horror of Israel's multi-decade siege on Gaza¹ and occupation of Palestinians when talking about this conflict.

There, I fixed it for you.

[1] As early as 1967, U.S. Senator Albert Gore Sr. called Gaza “a vast concentration camp on the sand”.

It should be noted that Hamas exists because of the occupation and atrocities that Israel has been committing for decades and decades. All war is atrocious, the actions of terrorists are disgusting, BUT you cannot discuss the actions of Hamas in a vacuum and forget why they even formed in the first place and continue to carry out their actions.

What was there before Hamas?

The PLO, which was getting too peaceful for Netanyahu's tastes so he had to prop up Hamas instead.

Think about how the modern communists love Hamas despite Hamas not being pro LGBT.

Think about how the PLO was a KGB linked terrorist organizations.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB106419296113226300

Interesting you didn't make any actual point there. On purpose, I assume. You're just doing the Joe Rogan meme of telling us to think about something.

What makes you believe this? Please show hard facts, not just wand waving

Netanyahu said so. Please do a quick Google before commenting, it'll make your propaganda much more effective.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...

It says clearly in the article you linked that it's just a rumor. He said no such thing.

You really need to quantify each of those things and many more to be able to compare. Otherwise it's meaningless.

In every such post you have people both-sidesing. Killing almost 100k people is not equivalent to whatever Hamas has done. Hamas bad, Israel worse. It's not very difficult.

It's not a war. It's US/Israeli propaganda to call it as such. Wars occurs between state actors. This is wholesale slaughter of people on land you claim that you've deliberately put in an open air prison and starved.

The level of violence is set by the occupier. Would there be pearl-clutching about the Warsaw Uprising, John Brown or Nat Turner? What about resistance to British occupation of Ireland (or India or any number of other British colonial projects)? The ANC in South Africa was incredibly violent in its resistance to apartheid. Resistance movements in occupied Europe were also incredibly violent (eg killing collaborators).

What you seem to have fallen for is tone policing a 78 year long resistance. A lot of people (generally, not you specifically) have this belief that things began on Oct 7. You will get questions of "why can't they resist peacefully?" Well, they have. Multiple times. Most recently with the March of Return several years earlier. Many don't know about it because it was barely reported on. What happened? For the "crime" of standing within a few hundred yards of the fence, the IOF used protestors as target practice. 500+ dead, 8000+ wounded. "Wounded" here is doing a lot of heavy lifting too because it included deliberately and permanently maiming people by blowing their legs off deliberately [1].

"Terrorism" is a political designation. And the US doesn't face such threats? Really? The police kill over 1000 people every single year. Mass shootings? Why isn't that seen as terrorism? Or the violence committed by ICE against random US citizens or detainees?

I'll leave you with this quote from JFK [2]:

    Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable

[1]: https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-snipers-brag-about-deli...

[2]: https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/acref/978019...

> use of human shields

Hamas does not use human shields. Please don't spread Israeli lies and propaganda to cover for their genocide.

Hamas has every right to resist. Unguided rockets? There's IDF in nearly every building in Israel. The excuses used to genocide Palestinians far more aptly describe Israel.

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