All of this Hugging Face business is the perfect pretext: AI agents are hard to control and potentially dangerous, we (AI companies) have to keep a tight leash on them, you have to use our infra.
When this bursts, its going to be ugly.
Back in May, Google was serving daily what openrouter served in a month, all models combined.
Compute is the moat.
They will invest in efficiency as they have been whilst compute comes online.
Wow you guys are dumb!
Temporary moat; the way that electricity was once a moat, it was still only temporary.
Compute is just a parapet. It won't protect you from better, more efficient models from undercutting you on price and speed.
Put a different way, they are calling for everyone to slow down because... they are slowing down themselves.
To the question of "why are you slowing down", the answer of "Well, everyone is regulated to slow down" is better then "we are approaching the limits of this approach".
The Dario bit on SNL’s Weekend Update this past weekend was on the nose.
(I'm familiar w the heuristic but didn't immediately grok the acronym, hence sharing)
Looking at it from one way would be "winner takes all, real AGI company will be most powerful and everyone will switch to use it".
But it is not like that and in my opinion it is more like "AGI wipes whole knowledge work, so no one who cares has any money to pay for tokens/subscriptions anymore". Even without AGI current state of art of LLMs already starts creating such a problem. How do they continue to grow their numbers, when they actively cut the branch they are sitting on? How does AI LLMs or AGI pays for its own electricity, when people switch from hype to resource protection (like not spending any money, because generating funny cats loses with having a dinner)?
The Statement on AI Extinction Risk is more than three years old, signed by the three CEOs: https://aistatement.com/work/statement-on-ai-extinction-risk
They have been warning about AI extinction risk for years, and AI progress has only been accelerating.
So, they're either liars or homicidally reckless.
They're CEOs of tech companies with insane valuations
> or homicidally reckless
They're CEOs of bleeding edge tech companies with huge capital and military applications
>So, they're either liars or homicidally reckless.
Yes!
Which ironically is also the outcome of letting these companies continue unchecked. If they produce AGI/ASI, our economy will go through an upheaval that leaves vast tracts of the population unemployed. This is their stated goal.
We are damned if we do something, and damned if we don’t.
Important people will loose too much money on their tulip investments, so tulips must go up forever?
Seems like a "less pain now or more pain later" type situation.
https://www.seangoedecke.com/they-really-do-think-ai-might-k...
It's well worth the read.
I'm familiar with the existential risk thinking.
The the flaw in that idea that they can avert disaster by building faster is they're likely just racing faster towards more plausible non-extinction disasters. Stuff like Capitalism x AGI totally crushing the economic prospects of nearly all people, AGI-powered totalitarianism, etc.
There were nuclear researchers who did not pay into their retirement fund since they thought it was kinda high chance humanity extinction was happening in their lifetime during the heyday of nuclear proliferation. We are seeing the same play out in AI. I know at least one AI researcher who is not paying into their retirement fund.
Never ascribe to malice that can easily be explained by game theory tragedy of the commons or prisoner dilemma type dynamics. Race dynamics and systems theory is one helluva drug and leads to horrific outcomes all the time without the need to ascribe malice to any individual actor.
GPT-6 Astra (max) has a hallucination rate of 51% and Claude Opus 5.5 (max) has a rate of 59% according to Artificial Analysis [1].
AA-Omniscience Hallucination Rate (lower is better) measures how often the model answers incorrectly when it should have refused or admitted to not knowing the answer. It is defined as the proportion of incorrect answers out of all non-correct responses, i.e. incorrect / (incorrect + partial answers + not attempted)
[1]:https://artificialanalysis.ai/evaluations/omniscience#omnisc...
> getClientRects() returns the flat array of DOMRect objects for the Fragment’s first-level DOM children. source: https://react.dev/reference/react/Fragment
2nd question it replied:
> They examined 1960–1986 for the 15 OECD countries. Source: https://www.earth.columbia.edu/sitefiles/file/about/director...
Are these hallucinations?
IME on real projects you do need to be very careful with prompts about topics that are less likely be common in the training set.
Suppose parents tell their children that there exists this man called "Santa Claus" who comes down the chimney to deliver presents. Now consider a scientist talking to this child, should the scientist call these confidently expressed beliefs surrounding "Santa Claus" hallucinations ? I don't think so, most would call the epistemological behavior of the child naive (because it blindly believes what its parents say, without direct observation) and would call the confidently expressed falsehoods disinformation.
The scientist would ask the child "why it believes in Santa Claus?" and "where did you get this information from?" and "why did you decide to accept this information as fact?" and "do you believe everything your parents tell you?"
It's not that machine learning as a scientific discipline hasn't found solutions, its that such solutions enormously undermine the position of Frontier LLM labs: source-aware training
https://arxiv.org/abs/2404.01019
Imagine Frontier labs (Western / Chinese / ...) actually training their LLM's with source-aware training! You could have a conversation with an LLM, and when a strong statement appears ask it how it came to believe this, and it could cite you the specific corpus training texts, and which parts are known deductions by human authors and which parts are deductions it made itself as original work.
But then all the copy rights holders can simultaneously sue them.
And how much should they be paid? and do they have to pay it for each new model? do FOSS models require payment to authors? do open weights models require payment to authors?
Imagine the can of worms if the norm became for frontier LLM labs to systematically use source-aware training, thats why they prefer "hallucinations" and avoid source-aware training.
With source-aware training a lot of the concerns would diminish ("why is this Chinese model claiming such and such?", "what sources does it rely on?").
It's telling that the companies prefer regulation over source-aware training.
EDIT: It's telling that the companies prefer regulation over source-aware training, which suggests the only additional regulation we need for now is mandating source-aware training?
A score of 51% means that out of the total answers the model failed to answer correctly (out of 6000 questions in the benchmark), 51% were factually incorrect rather than non-attempted or uncertain.
This doesn't mean that Astra hallucinated 3060/6000 answers in the benchmark! (The hallucination rate could be 51% in that scenario only if Astra failed to answer a single question correctly.)
If the model failed to give a correct answer to only 100 out of the 6000 questions, but gave a hallucinated answer to 51 of those rather than expressing uncertainty, that would also give a hallucination rate of 51%.
It's a useful metric, but not what you're looking for here. The "Score" or "Accuracy" benchmarks are more what you're after.
(The frontier models still generate hallucinations on this hard set of problems, but it's not as bad as you think.)
Actually... nah. Why even try? Trendy cynical hot takes on social media are more fun!
They believe it's real and they MUST be the ones to control it. That's how they keep their self-interests aligned.
Given the opportunity to give this pill to a dying loved one, you'd take it.
The only reason you think that being death-optional is bad, is because the only longevity-related media you've ever consumed has doomer outcomes - because positive sci-fi doesn't sell.
Also it cheapens the time you have. Why care about anything if you live forever
You cannot think of other ways to solve societal problems that don't involve killing everyone on the planet?
"cheapens the time you have" - this is just copium. When you're enjoying a day, you are not thinking "oh geez this day is good because I'm going to fucking die." You're just enjoying the day.
So yea I’m willing to “kill” everyone to prevent the perpetual torment nexus becoming a reality.
I wonder how your children would feel if you told them you'd rather kill them than think of other ways in which to solve the problem of a dictator that does not affect their lives in any way.
To the extent that it is even a "problem", frankly absurd to kill everyone because you're worried about out a few edge cases, and I think you realize it - you're just hanging on. We both know you wouldn't make this decision on your own deathbed.
Death is doing a fine job and has so for billions of years.
The only long-term outcome of immortality i can imagine is either Drukhari-style depravity, where you chase more and more fucked up pleasures because anything else you already did 10 million times in the last couple thousands of years - or something like I have no mouth but I must scream - you can live forever but the AI also tortures you forever.
Literally cant think of a positive outcome.
You are right that dynasties exist but that doesn’t mean they are static - the transfer of power of this to the next generation needs to happen.
Every king has its time to rule and then he dies.
Sure an evil dictator is just one person but they can inflict untold billions of suffering.
Just imagine if Hitler (or insert your favourite evil person) would live forever. Do you really think they are going to let go of power or care about anything else but achieving their goals?
We literally feel the ill effects of the previous generation not passing power onto the next (boomers) right now - imagine that was a perpetual state of society forever.
And while we are speaking of “killing” kids - what about the unborn ones? What motivation would people have to procreate if they live forever? Create more people to share more and more limited resources with, I don’t think so.
I think you haven’t quite thought this through; it’s not as easy as “death bad”.
Now I’m not saying we shouldn’t look for cures of diseases and suffering but striving for immortality is not desirable (tbh it will most likely take the form of “we’re gonna upload your consciousness into a computer” anyway, not physical immortality)
Its 100% human doing. A human set a task, a human didn't monitor it. I for one, can do jack-shit security or defensive work with Opus/Fable/Astra/Sol. Implication: Different set of rules for us, and for them. Of course running it without any checks is not going to end well, it doesn't mean its going to kill us all.
They stupidly used up this strategy earlier and now it’s turned into the boy who cried wolf - except they invented a wolf that doesn’t naturally exist.
(Using it for scientific python code + 3D UIs)
However, adoption in the wider society will take many years or even decades, and 'good enough' open weight models are putting a cap on the pricing. So even though their products are great, the large labs are fighting for survival.
Realistically, each new, better model will only capture a smaller and smaller part of use cases for which existing competing models were not enough.
So in few years (arguably, already started) they are in race to the bottom for service to majority of their customers, and with companies that have far smaller R&D bill.
at the same time, more and more models will be ran locally, and that eats into potential profits of them too
On side note, I wouldn't be surprised if GPU vendors started making DRM for AI models so you could "license" someone's model to run locally for x mil tokens per license...
If you look at the AI space, most of the big players (as in the individual researchers and engineers) are getting worried. The ideas that circulate on LessWrong have become more and more influential and in vogue in Silicon Valley, and people are scared. You should listen to Jacob Coxon’s interview with the New York Times. He describes how working on this kind of AI research had induced a sort of insanity in a lot of his past friends and coworkers as they begin to grapple with the implications of what they’re creating.
Sometimes, HN can be a little too skeptical and anti-corporate for its own good. I personally believe that concerns around AI risks are well-founded, anywhere on the spectrum from mass labor displacement to actual harm to humanity. I rarely see people here actually wrestle with those ideas, instead defaulting to dismissing LLMs as too stupid because Claude wasn’t able to write as elegant of a compiler as them. AI has clearly improved radically in the past few years, and it’s worth extrapolating that into the future and taking a good hard look at what that means for humanity.
By arguing that the AI is dangerous, they are really arguing that someone 'trusted' needs to monitor the situation, so that the outcome is aligned with existing power.
They are trying to scare the world into forbidding others the right to use and develop AI.
The frontier labs are investing TONS of capital into training the new 'best model ever'. Today, that doesn't make economic sense, it loses money. So where's the business? The future, where token costs reflect the costs involved.
For that to be corrected, the labs need to get people using the models for things they depend on, then they turn dial up on cost. The ordering there is critical. It has to become indispensable first, then costs go up.
The trouble is, open weight models are rapidly becoming usable in what is looking like the big market: coding. Step 2 (the costs go up) doesn't work if there is a ready off-ramp that doesn't require frontier models.
However, if they can effectively make open weight model development illegal (its dangerous!), their business strategy can remain intact. A nice side effect is that they will be effectively be granted an oligopoly "for humanity's safety".
If they can convince the populace that a text generator is an existential threat to humanity, that's a hard argument to combat.
Edit: I think it is ridiculous that autocomplete on steroids is an existential threat. There's no way anything harmful happens until you actually use it as part of important systems. By that reasoning, you could make it illegal to use AI in important systems, but do you think that's the argument the frontier labs are making to governments?