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ajkjk

Man I wish HN commenters could be bothered to even attempt to read each other charitably instead of this crap

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I did and then I asked a serious question.

These are arguments that are put forward in favor of mass-surveillance.

That is in direct contradiction to the claim "I’m not trying to be pro-surveillance state or whatever".

So I was wondering how that contradiction comes about and asked about it.

What would you suggest the charitable reading should be ?

You believe them. You believe the line "I'm not trying to be pro surveillance state", and then you take seriously the points they made which are completely reasonable things to ask, and you engage critically with them, and discuss how those points are compatible or incompatible with the overall stance. It is easy.

As a general rule: to engage charitably with someone you believe the things they say they believe, at face value and attempt to understand how they could come to believe those things.

But I do believe them. It's just that they points that they sincerely ( I did not doubt that) made are part of the same set of points that are made in favor of a surveillance state - there is a contradiction here. Instead of assuming, I asked a question.

Quite literally this:

> attempt to understand how they could come to believe those things.

Is it possible that you are not reading my comment charitably ?

You asked them "why do you go on making these pro surveillance state arguments?"

How is that supposed to be a serious question? They brought up real concerns. The "why" is obviously that they had real questions--that's the purpose of all questions. So they asked them,and then you implied that, if a person was truly not pro-surveillance, they would not ask such questions. Yet they had those questions. So you think they should have pretended to not be confused? Not asked those questions? Pretended like everything made sense? What was the goal here?

You didn't engage with the content of their questions at all. You just called out the act of questioning. You implied that by asking at all they were on the wrong 'side'.

Look, I was trying to understand why the op believed the points that they made were not "pro surveillance-state", that doesn't align with what you are interested in reading here, but that's not really my job.

> You implied

I think you are implying that I implied.

Best to end this here, probably.

Everyone who writes 'not trying to sound pro X, but... ' is about to follow that with things that sounds pro X. That's what that rhetorical device means. So they obviously knew that the points sounded pro-surveillance. That's why they wrote that disclaimer.

They sounded pro-surveillance because they are pro-surveillance. The better question should be why a pro-surveillance person making pro-surveillance points felt the need to start with "I'm not pro-surveillance but". Perhaps they know their position is very unpopular and are hoping this magic spell will ward off some criticism?

Or maybe it's just more complicated than being on one side or the other.

Engaging charitably with the bullshit means the bullshit wins.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

A charitable read of this article isn't even necessary to understand the point of this is the opposite of the poster you replied to. Basic discernment at most.

Not sure there's a more charitable read on "I don't want to be pro-surveillance, but [bunch of reasons why I think this is fine and that surveillance should be and has been normalized]".

whoosh

Yes there is. That's the point of the comment. They made their points seriously and people should engage with them seriously. Instead of this reductive tribalism: "oo you expressed doubt about whether this is really bad, you must be One Of Them". Well they actually doubt it. Now what? Does trying to shame them out of doubting it change their mind? Of course not. Either someone engages with their questions and convinces them to agree or they stay on the fence. Trying to shame people out of discussion by pointing out how they're acting like the Wrong People is anti-intellectual and disrespectful and ignorant. Not to mention completely ineffective.

Fair point; you're absolutely right.

However, I did follow up with a direct reply before making the comment you're replying to, so... I literally did "engage with their questions".

(to be clear, this thread is not in reply to your comment. There is some overlap though)

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