Hacker News Reader

Comment by bpodgursky | Hacker News Reader

Sorry this is a crazy interpretation of events.

Europe has 15x the GDP of Russia. If they were "hell bent" on militarily defeating Russia, they could have made even tiny sacrifices to the social welfare system, diverted industrial production to military aid, and drowned Ukraine in help. That was a very achievable goal, and they didn't do it.

Instead, the vacillated on importing US natural gas, continued shutting down nuclear power plants, and paid Russia MORE CASH FOR OIL than they ended up giving Ukraine in military aid! They did not in fact, dedicate themselves to this war in any way shape or form.

View on HN

> they could have made even tiny sacrifices to the social welfare system, diverted industrial production to military aid, and drowned Ukraine in help. That was a very achievable goal, and they didn't do it.

We already did that. Welfare and funding to social services, elderly care, etc is significantly reduced and with higher bar to get than before 2022 where I live. Plus we're also paying the price in higher housing costs thanks to housing millions of Ukrainians.

It's easy to want a higher reduction on welfare services when you're not the one needing them. It's easy to write cheques that other people have to cash.

> Welfare and funding to social services, elderly care, etc is significantly reduced and with higher bar to get than before 2022 where I live.

Same here! I'd actually say it's basically shut down to new people.

I have spoken to 5 different health/government departments just trying to get some care for my elderly family member who lives alone and has badly hurt both legs, but I have been denied, denied and denied and lied to at every single stage. "We have no money", "Go private", "We are at capacity", "There is a 16 week wait for an assessment", "You can only access us via your GP" [lie]

All because they aren't retirement age yet - then they get more red carpet treatment.

The Government is also busy trying to figure out how to cut welfare for those who don't vote in sufficient numbers to matter

Then go private and get the same treatment as the USA. Or wait 16 weeks and get it for free.

Are you for real? Look into France's pension situation. The median pensioner has HIGHER INCOME than the median working adult. And retirement was at 62!

No, there have been absolutely no real cuts to elderly care, the UK's triple lock ensures that the situation gets monotonically worse until the system collapses.

>Are you for real?

YES.

I don't live in France or the UK.

>No, there have been absolutely no real cuts to elderly care

Yeah they have. My city is short 30 million Euros on disability care this year despite increases in taxes. I (non retiree) now need to wait 6+ months for a surgery when it used to be 2, and pay from my taxes for money and weapons to Ukraine and housing to Ukrainian refugees in my city while they have nicer cars than me and don't pay the back breaking car taxes because they leave them on UA plates. I don't necessarily mind that per se, but I do mind being berated as if I'm not sacrificing enough. Please set an example and sacrifice yourself and your family for Ukraine before lecturing us.

> because they leave them on UA plates

which EU country permits non-EU plates (and insurance?) indefinitely?

That was always going to happen. The war just makes that worse. The demographics and lack of economic growth were always going to break those welfare systems. How much they break and who loses out were the only real questions.

> If they were "hell bent" on militarily defeating Russia, they could have made even tiny sacrifices to the social welfare system, diverted industrial production to military aid, and drowned Ukraine in help

Why do you think an entire continent with multiple and (sometimes even conflicting with each other) culture, priorities, national interest would do that? EU is an economic union. Not a federation like US

Because NATO article 5 demands it.

European support started out slow, but has ramped up as the US has backed away.

Germany will spend 20% of it's federal budget on military in 2027, planning to increase that to 30% by 2030. "We cannot defend ourselves against Putin with a balanced budget".

What does NATO article 5 have to do with Ukraine?

The parent was talking about the disunity of Europe in standing up to Putin.

What would come next after Ukraine may be the Baltic states or Poland.

> What would come next after Ukraine may be the Baltic states or Poland.

According to your YouTube sources? NATO has nothing to do with Ukraine. NATO countries can defend themselves if one of those countries actually are being attacked. That happened in 9/11 and NATO countries supporting militarily the US wars that preceded.

They have no such obligation towards Ukraine.

They have no NATO obligation towards Ukraine, but I'd say they do have a moral one, and they also have their own self-interest.

There is no such thing as moral obligation when it comes to politics and national interest. If it’s your country, then it’s your job to defend it or whatever. So far it doesn’t seem to be serving their self interest supporting an endless war.

Their self-interest is in keeping Putin at arms length and avoiding WW III. Putin is already threatening Lithuania, sending drones into Poland. If Putin wasn't prevented from taking Ukraine, do you really think it would end there?

There is no such thing as moral obligation when it comes to politics and national interest.

There is if you ever want to negotiate a nuclear arms-control deal again. None of this would be an issue if Ukraine had kept their nukes.

They had that treaty that they kinda forgot about already..

Ukraine is not a NATO member

Europe has been stepping up a lot recently, given Trump's reluctance to push back against Putin - looks at UK/France supply of missile and anti-missile systems and IP to Ukraine, stepped up air defense based out of Lithuania (anticipating Kaliningrad as the first front of the war), etc.

No, they have not been "stepping up" relative to the existential threat at their door. They are still doing 10% of the minimum you'd expect from someone whose literal lives and civilization are at risk from a barbarian threat literally murdering their neighbors (and playing games with their own sovereignty more recently, with drone incursions).

Measured response. Remember that you don't want all out war. Support your allies, don't kill everyone in the entire world.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com