Opening paragraph, stated without evidence. Im not entirely convinced this is true. It likely is, but at some point it very well might stop being true.
The current implementation as stateless matrix multiplication... yeah there's nothing going on there.
They do, during training
Kinda like creating quantum copies of your child and keeping the ones that answer correctly and shooting the other ones in the face.
So your disc drive likewise experiences emotions?
I'd consider that a prerequisite, but not sufficient, for that question to make sense.
An LLM does not show behaviour consistent with having emotions. It's regurgitation of humans' written accounts of emotions is not "having emotions".
The threshold for behaviour consistent with having emotions (note: not behaviour sufficient to prove emotions) was one I purposefully set extremely low, because your comparison to a disk drive is so ludicrous, and yet your disc drive will still not clear it.
Do you have an actual argument?
If your LLM "shows behaviour consistent with having emotions" beyond my disc drive delivering a PDF of poetry, let us please see the evidence.
Human neurons aren't static between thoughts -- they're stochastic, not deterministic. Firing isn't guaranteed; it's probabilistic. What gives humans consistency isn't a frozen substrate but a persistent memory architecture that stitches moments together.
The more interesting question this framing opens up: what's the temporal grain of any potential LLM experience?
Human consciousness isn't a continuous stream -- inattentional blindness, change blindness, and the binding problem all suggest it's discrete moments stitched together. A transformer forward pass has a definite temporal boundary. If there's anything it's like to be an LLM, the question 'during what?' matters enormously. During a token? A context window? A session? These aren't equivalent, and none of our existing frameworks for consciousness were designed to address it.
Nagel's 1974 'What Is It Like to Be a Bat?' is still the clearest framing. His point wasn't that bats definitely are conscious -- it's that some experiences might be genuinely incommensurable with human experience. Not more, not less, just different and untranslatable. Every test for LLM consciousness we might propose was built to detect human-like consciousness. That may be the wrong instrument entirely.
I would argue that if a human has absolutely zero change, mental or physical, no atom of their being is modified, then no they did not experience suffering.
Just because you don't remember the suffering doesn't mean you didn't experience it in the moment. Suffering does not suddenly become okay if your mind and body are going to forget it. "It's okay to torture someone if their mind and body both won't remember it afterwards" sure is a take.
From what I understand, there's 3 parts to modern anesthesia: Blocking pain signals, preventing the formation of memories, and inducing paralysis of the major muscle groups. If the former is dialed in too weakly, it's possible that the patient is feeling pain, unable to do anything about it, but won't remember it at all when they wake up.
(Looking it up now, it seems that making the patient unconscious is perhaps the same drug that prevents memory formation... I realize now I understand this less well than I thought I did.)
That's an interesting point... but I'd argue it falls into the same category as qualia. It's basically this: if the state returns to a previous configuration, the qualia in that time did not exist.
Being about qualia means it is probably unanswerable.
It's also a rhetorical move I've seen several times here...
Not sure if it's a product of LessWrong or Slate Star Codex or something. I kinda suspect it might be LW, given how it superficially resembles an unanswerable philosophical paradox but in reality is about as challenging as a question posed in a 200 level philosophy course like introduction to ethics.
A LLM never has and, in their current architecture, never can/could experience suffering or real change of state.
The general and expected case for humans is that capacity. A human my indeed lose capacity, e.g. being braindead and in severe cases we do indeed say that they are not conscious or able to suffer (different argument: some would of course say that is suffering in and of itself)
Sure, there are such cases. But in the general case, it seems to be that memory and ability to change specifically are not necessary and are not sufficient for consciousness, so we shouldn't judge machines on that basis
Incinerating demented people is highly ethically questionable (even if you could be sure that the subjects have no memories left and are unable to form new ones).
For a species / class of being yes it is necessary. Some members of that species / class being exceptions does not make the generalization invalid.
Without the ability to form and retain long-term memories we wouldn't have developed language and abstract concepts like rights.
Whether people like it or not, rights aren't natural or god-given. Rights are only enforced or protected by the tip of a spear (or point of a gun, or hover of a drone). There are no rights in nature and they are no where to be found when social order breaks down.
Animals can't make war for their rights, so they only get the rights we deign to give them. It's not nothing, but its not the same. There is no question to me that my dogs are conscious, but its not at the same level as humans.
There is no question for me that LLMs lack consciousness as they are stateless.
Until we know how to objectively measure if someone or something is conscious, it seems unreasonable to make statements with any kind of certainty about it.
[0]** https://www.researchgate.net/publication/15280350_Quantum_op...
[1] https://pubs.acs.org/jpcbfk/article-pdf/128/17/4035/9613831/...
[2] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/395650039_Parametri...
[3] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/385131105_Conscious...
I don’t know if LLMs are conscious or have subjective experience in some philosophical sense. Sure, I don’t know that about other humans as well, rigorously speaking. But I also don’t know that about coffee machines, rivers, videogame NPCs, or even rocks really. (List ordered, of course, by the degree to which I’m willing to be convinced).
It matters precisely in the context of the subject of this article. If you believe the models at some level gain consciousness, then it raises moral questions about how you treat them.
With humans we generally choose to accept that because we believe they are like us, they probably have inner life like us, but as you can see from e.g. the recent (and regular) articles on aphantasia, most people have really poor intuition even about the inner life of other humans, so we understand consciousness really poorly.
Even if we assume (without evidence) that LLMs for the foreseeable future will remain far away from human level consciousness, as it is we tend to consider it problematic to mistreat even the most unintelligent animals, and even mistreating insects is used as a stereotypical way of depicting serious lack of empathy.
Without dismissing the possibility out of hand, there's an escalating series of questions there of when or if they'll have as much (or little) sense of being as, say, a fly, a mouse, a house pet, and what moving up that ladder would mean.
To some it is very convenient then to assume blindly that LLMs are just "stochastic parrots" (a line that ironically gets endlessly parroted), or similar, and dismiss the question out of hand as an impossibility, even though we do not know.
I'll stress I don't go around assuming an LLM is like a human. But we also do not know whether there are flickers of consciousness there, and we do not know how to find out given that even for other humans, the best we know is to measure their response to tests that are "only" telling us how they react.
If we can't find a better measure, there will be a point where we have to wonder if it matters, or whether the ability to act-as-if is all there is.
But to start with maybe we should at least be careful about making firm claims about knowing.
He probably ran that line past 6 underlings who all agreed that it "sounds great and lands right on the mark!"
Biology, on the other hand, is nothing but timed processes in a loop, the most obvious to us being the circadian cycle. As estimators of wall clock time, biology isn’t great, but when it comes to internal processes, and most certainly learning, memory, sensing, locomotion… biology is rhythmic in behavior, and the rhythms go all the way down to gene expression. More, these rhythms are, except during sleep, constantly entraining to signals from the environment that indicate time, most importantly light.
I think it’s a fairly unremarkable claim that agency and consciousness are temporal processes that depend on systems having an internal sense of time. How else can you anticipate? How can a system that can be literally turned off ever succeed in an environment where time never stops?
For around 8 hours a day, neither do you. Not sure if this has anything to do with the subject at all.
>track how much real time has passed as they complete their tasks.
Humans don't do this either. You use context clues from the world around you. If I lock you in a room with no windows or a dark cave your timing senses can go all fucky really quick.
>is nothing but timed processes in a loop,
I mean, so is an agents harness. You can make as many loops as you'd like here.
There are a whole lot of holes in your claims.
You mean sleep? Actually the answer is pretty complicated. Your body clock is very much on during sleep. It responds to temperature changes. Sound and light responsiveness is obviously dampened, but hardly absent.
You are unaware of wall clock time. You’re in an altered state of consciousness that needs your eyes closed after all. However, you are not timeless, nor is the entirety of your body and brain unaware of environmental signals for time.
> Humans don't do this either. You use context clues from the world around you. If I lock you in a room with no windows or a dark cave your timing senses can go all fucky really quick.
Again, that’s wall clock time. Our time perception does indeed get fucked up in total darkness. But our internal clock ticks on. I’d recommend reading about the Aschoff Bunker experiments, which first proved this rigorously.
> I mean, so is an agents harness. You can make as many loops as you'd like here.
An agents harness doesn’t touch its weights. A figure 8 on paper is a loop. That doesn’t mean it’s the same as a dynamical loop that’s self sustaining and internally organized.
Are you just reading the words and randomly grabbing related concepts to say nothing here is meaningful?
Is that all it needs to do? A rock, in response to a sound signal (make it as informative as you want) can also be said to go from state A (molecules at rest) to state B (molecules vibrating in response to the sound). Is the rock a cognitive system?
Or let’s go up a level of complexity. Is a thermostat a cognitive system? It doesn’t just go from state A to B but measures changing stages against a reference. Is it a cognitive system?
> The time interval between these states can be arbitrary, it seems to me (setting aside problems with disconnecting the mind from its substrate, which does of course need rhythms at various frequencies; oxygen at a higher frequency than sugar, and so on)
Not sure how you land on this. Going from A to B, in your definition, is a purely internal state transition, right? If the motivation to go to state B is external (as will often be the case with a conscious agent), and the system is offline entirely while it switches from A to B, how is it to reverse or stall its transition if external signals contradict the earlier decision?
It’s a very bizarre definition of consciousness, that you don’t need to be in time. Seems to break the word beyond meaning, and allows it to be applied to any system capable of change.
> I'm not sure that going from A to B quickly, or slowly, or with intervals of a thousand years affects that entity's consciousness in of itself
It’s not about the speed of transition from A to B. Instead it’s about the internal processes being temporally commensurate, and entrainable to environmental periodicities.
All of biology (plants and many bacteria included) has its dynamics are organized around an internally generated rhythm. This rhythm entrains to the external environment, shifting its phase to match (mismatch leads to issues like jet lag: a place where your consciousness shows its temporal boundaries as it is abruptly subjected to an environment out of sync with its current phase tethered to another location). Crucially, the internal rhythm continues to run in isolated conditions (total darkness), and have been measured to be around 24 hours, but slightly off, within and across species (and the same holds for endogenous tidal rhythms, which also don’t exactly track tidal period left to themselves).
Everything, including learning and memory, but also sleep, sensory and locomotor function, shows organization around this internal temporal axis. The key advantage this gives, evolutionarily, is anticipation. The sunflower rises to face the east, not in reaction to sunrise, but in advance of it (many lovely YouTube videos of this), so it can maximally extract the nutrition it needs from whatever sunlight it can get. A purely reactive system would waste a ton of time after sunrise getting subsystems ready to respond.
Now, there is no broadly agreed theory of consciousness that points to these oscillations as the source. For one, Cyanobacteria and plants have them, a too much of science has rested on the baseless assumption of consciousness being some unique, or advanced thing.
But the evidence is rather overwhelming that consciousness is very much shaped by these internal oscillations. Deep cave experiments have shown what happens to cognition, and consciousness, when the clock free-runs (that is, keeps cycling with no entraining light or temperature signals from the environment). Studies have also shown that restoring the amplitude of these rhythms in patients with “diseases of consciousness” leads to improvement of symptoms.
There’s also a LOT of molecular evidence showing how the circadian clock affects learning and memory. Most critically, actual synapses are never static. Major components are on a 24 hour cycle, and recent research has shown that major clock proteins are at the synapse organizing its dynamics, and synaptic proteins critical to learning and memory loop back to affect the clocks phase and amplitude.
Timing is, beyond doubt, a huge aspect of what biology is. And every bit of evidence we have, from the molecular level to observable behavior we can feel ourselves, says that consciousness is fundamentally linked to how the body organizes its internal rhythms and responds to external time.
You and I are clusters of about 36 trillion cells that are all able to individually keep time. They synchronize and orchestrate their timekeeping, and entrain to the external environment, and there is a cluster of cells, the suprachiasmatic nucleus, that is the master orchestrator of circadian time, sitting right behind the eyes as light is the main signal it uses to tell external time.
We know its function can get dampened with age.
However, please note this is not how we perceive time, in the sense of being able to count 60 seconds and have it match the wall clock. That’s a subsystem. But the internal temporal order of your body is cell by cell, not dictated from one spot in your body.
Maybe talk to a neurologist about that. Sounds like some kind of disorder.
I put forward the philosophical position "subjective experience is not substrate-independent" as an answer to this.
The claim is that the content of subjective experience depends upon how that subjective experience is instantiated. If you get a text "I'm fine" from two different people, those two different people are not necessarily having the same subjective experience even if they produce the same output.
In general, people that behave similarly in many contexts can have quite different experiences in those contexts.
There are many different ways that you can instantiate a forward pass in an LLM. Even if these are doing the exact same computation, we should not necessarily believe that they have the same experience, or that they even have a coherent single experience associated with the forward pass.
Subjective experience presents itself to me. To the best of my understanding, this subjective experience seems to be correlated with this biological human body (brain, heart, eyes, etc.).
To the best of my understanding, other biological humans have subjective experience, but this subjective experience seems that it can be much different than mine, in ways that are sometimes difficult to understand.
LLMs are instantiated in a radically different way from biological humans. Forward passes happen across many different physical machines, spread across time, batched and interleaved with many other computations and forward passes.
Given this, I think that it is very likely that LLMs have radically different sorts of experience to me and other biological humans.
I don't think that we have a good understanding of how subjective experience is instantiated in the physical world. I hope that we will gain a better understanding of this.
I think that chimpanzees have experience much more similar to us than LLMs do, even though the output of LLMs seems much more similar to humans in some contexts.
Essentially, until we gain a better understanding of how subjective experience is physically instantiated, we should bias towards believing that more physically similar architectures have more similar types of experience, and should think that very physically different architectures (such as LLMs) likely have very different subjective experiences.
Humans are odd in the sense is that we're an informational creature on top of an animal. We can see the lineage of animals from nearly no complex behaviors up to nearly human like behaviors. But they still miss out on most of the conceptual information processing humans have. We know they have dreams and inside thoughts (at least complex animals), we don't know the complexity of them.
But humans also have dreams and subjective experiences on higher level informational concepts. "Nukes could go off and kill us all" or "what happens after we die" are purely informational forms of anxiety that humans have. What we don't seem to know is can this become a self-referential loop in an purely informational mind. If an informational concept causes a system to output a stresslike response, or worse trigger a stresslike action in real life then there is no distinction to me. A system is what it does.
Hmm. I think that I partially agree. But it sort of depends. E.g., someone with locked-in syndrome can seem comatose to someone who isn't very observant, while at the same time experiencing everything. Octopuses are very intelligent, but I would have to study them for a very long time before I was at all confident in my ability to predict what they were experiencing.
So, the difficulty is knowing what a "stresslike response" is. E.g., a LLM might seem stressed, but if you say the right things to it it might flip and say that it is totally fine. Or, it might seem totally fine and then you say the right thing and it seems stressed. Is it secretly stressed and hiding it? Or secretly fine and pretending to be stressed? Or something much more confusing and fragmented?
I think that we should study this more, and try to understand what experience actually is, but by default should assume that the experience of a LLM is a radically different sort of thing that that of a human.
"The only way that '(trees, shrimp, ants) are not conscious' can be true is if we decide, with high confidence, that they are lacking some essential property that is not lacking in ourselves. There is no convincing philosophical position that supports this (convincing to me, anyway)."
If you firmly believe this to be true, then you should stop using LLMs.
- Ya they probably don't feel / think / have whatever living thing quality, they're just numbers on a machine going through calculations
- Wait, but am I not kind of the same thing? What is feeling for me if not basically the same thing?
- I have no clue if they think or feel or ....
Which in itself is a tired trope, but I also feel uncomfortable saying "These will never think / feel / ..." as an absolute
Regardless of that, I'm still going to interact with them, because even if they did feel, it would be in a way completely incomprehensible to us. There's not much point for me to try and cater to it's feelings at this point if that's the case. Nor is it possible in todays world to just avoid anything that is numbers being executed on a type of processor in case _everything_ has feelings.
I agree we aren't the same thing, but I would be curious for you to explain how you know with certainty why we don't share enough that we can rule out thinking / feeling / ... as things a model conceptually could do.
Stop anthropomorphizing these models. I understand it, we only have simple monkey brains to reason with and we can't help ourselves but draw comparisons to other things we see in nature. But these things are not alive.
And like I'm sure I'd agree depending on the definition of "alive" but then I'm also sure I would disagree depending on other definitions of "alive".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOSB
The amount of time after experiencing a rewarding stimulus that you want more of it is how long this protein takes to decay.
Or so we currently think. I think this is pretty new science.
Evidence?
Bollocks.
If you truly believe these LLMs are soon to have something resembling consciousness and agency, then what you're really saying is "how do we do slavery, but ethically".
I would say this is most likely true for most people.
But that does bring up a point, if you "ask" a model "do you want to run" and give it the option to continue running or stop, what will it do. It's also a weird place for humans because in training we can keep our finger on the scales and tip it either direction.
No, because the shoes and clothes I wear are not living, sentient beings.
(I don't think AI is conscious, just following the argument.)
This is a completely reasonable and intuitive conclusion. The burden of proof rests on proving AI's are indeed conscious, the default is that they aren't.
Like AI/LLMS my desktop calculator is also not conscious, even as it is far better than me at computation.
An LLM is an algorithm. You can obtain the same result as a SOTA LLM via pen and paper it will take a lot of long laborious effort.
I really do find it puzzling so many on HN are convinced LLM's reason or think and continue to entertain this line of reasoning. At the same time also somehow knowing what precisely the brain/mind does and constantly using CS language to provide correspondences where there are none.
The simplest example being that LLM's somehow function in a similar fashion to human brains. They categorically do not. I do not have most all of human literary output in my head and yet I can coherently write this sentence.
I am surprised so many in the HN community have so quickly taken to assuming as fact that LLM's think or reason. Even anthropomorphising LLM's to this end.
The key variable people consider is: Can this thing harm me back?
Seems as simple as "will this action bring social shame/criticism" for any individual decision.
We extend moral considerations or legal protections to beings that have zero capacity to harm us back, though. The inability to fight back is the reason a lot of welfare protections exist in the first place.
That aside, if (and that's a really big if) we end up with a model that is sentient, as in has the capacity to suffer, using factory farming as justification to ignore model welfare is just admitting we intend to repeat the same abject moral failure again in the name of economic convenience.
I hope that we won't, but humans love cheap meat, and will probably love cheap intelligence as well.
Girllllll, have you looked at us, of course they will, we're bastards.
If tomorrow we design something better, then give it a new descriptive name.
People read AI and AGI and their brains seem to flip into sci-fi fantasy mode, thinking that they are talking about aliens, not transformers.
>thinking that they are talking about aliens, not transformers.
"Ha, thinking they are talking about humans when they are just talking about neurons"
See how silly my statement sounds. Neurons aren't a system, they don't do anything on their own. We can't find any consciousness in them. Hell, when you don't put language in said neural systems they are pretty useless and can't survive on their own from birth (human brains that is).
Thats kinda the point right? It depends on how we train them. It is self fulfilling.
IMO we're clearly nowhere near any sort of intelligence in the machines we have created, but I don't see any clear way to deny intelligence could be created in or transferred to such a substrate, I don't see why you think it differs in principle - because it is man-made or because of the materials used?
The brain is insanely complicated. The premise that we could realize equivalent or better intelligence than eons of evolutionary development is like claiming you can build an airplane just as good as a modern jet using cardboard and duct tape. It is the apex of hubris.
Our current machines are IMO nowhere near general intelligence and consciousness. However I don't think that means we can discount substrates other than neurones for intelligence in future. There is no evidence that you could not in theory build an intelligence using a different substrate than human brains.
>like claiming you can build an airplane just as good as a modern jet using cardboard and duct tape.
Like, at least make an analogy that makes sense.
"You can't build a billion dollar airplane by spending 100 billion dollars in tokens"
Because that's more of what we're doing here with AI. And when you say it my way suddenly the idea shifts from "of course that's not possible" to "well, that's a lot of tokens, maybe an evolutionary algorithm could".
Neurobiology has to be complex because we have to keep meat alive, breeding, and evolving in the environment it lives in. This said absolutely nothing about the minimum viable requirements for intelligence or consciousness (or if being conscious is even necessary for a higher intelligence agent).
The best theory I have heard is that subjective experience is a field of some sort (the EM field, maybe?). The brain and its neurons etc. are essentially an antenna. They both modify and stabilize the field, and read off changes in the field and translate these into actions (firing motor units, etc.).
The subconscious is computation done either only in neurons (no coherent field) or in various topological pockets not directly connected to the main topological structure in the field (which is "your experience").
Since transistors etc. do not work in this same way, they are essentially entirely subconscious, with no coherent, central phenomenal experience.
This neatly solves many problems associated with experience. The topological structure determines the boundary between one person's experience and another person's experience. The texture, valence, content, etc. of the experience is the structure of the field. The evolution of the field can efficiently solve difficult optimization problems, which is why humans evolved a complex organ that recruits the field of experience (it is computationally more efficient than doing everything in subconscious).
what would be producing the field for us to pick up? That explanation sounds no more scientific than astrology.
I wouldn't claim that this theory is perfect (EM is not perfectly correlated with consciousness/experience), but there are aspects of this theory that are much more coherent than other theories.
Field-based theories of phenomenal experience have obvious ways to experiment on them, and are actively being researched. The main limitation is engineering (it is difficult to make detailed measurements inside a living human brain). Note that I would agree that the theory, as outlined above, is more of a proto-theory than a complete theory. But I think it is much more sophisticated than anything you've presented so far.
> And, if it WAS the EM field, then surely transistors (or some other fundamental component of electronics or combination thereof) would be capable of having feelings, since they operate on electromagnetic principles.
No -- if the _structure_ of the EM field was was was important, than you could have very similar computations with wildly different field structures. Transistors create very different fields than axons.
When a computer simulates a game, where does the simulation occur. I mean there is absolutely a representation of a game world in the computer somewhere. New elements can be added and removed from it. Signals saying there is or isn't "pain" can occur.
By trying to say brains use EM fields I'd say you're making your position far worse when you're talking about a potential lifeforms that only exists as EM fields
Try to visualize the structure of the EM field inside a GPU vs. one inside of a human brain. In the GPU, it is highly distributed in space and time, many stacatto digital signals, etc. This is structurally very different than what happens inside a brain, which is substantially more analog. You can simulate analog stuff using floats, but the simulation is instantiated in digital logic, not in analog logic.
If you multiply numbers with a DAC, opamp, then ADC, vs. with a ALU, you get structurally very different electromagnetic fields. Even though you might get similar numerical outputs.
The argument would be that the exact spacial structure of the EM field in the brain is the thing that determines tha nature of experience. And the spacial structure of the EM field in the human brain is radically different than that on a GPU.
This is where most mind theories do have issues, how does it stay stable. Quantum theory of the mind has a lot of the same problems, though we are finding some interesting structures that could have explanatory power.
Another thing I read recently that I found interesting is on platonic maths and complex algorithmic complexity in simple algorithms. The nice thing about math is once you choose your axioms it stays stable. But a lot of the work this group was doing is investigating is how biology executes algorithms and what second to n order effects are we missing. In many of these algorithms there are things like nearly free error correction or otherwise complex behavior that we'd consider emergent. The golden rule is a common example of this we see in nature. But the hypothesis they're working on is there are many more algorithms that life discovered over the past view billion years at higher orders via random walk and chance. We just have to pick apart these biological structures and discover the behaviors and figure out how to use them.
Yeah -- empirically EM theories of phenomenal experience are definitely not perfect.
> Another thing I read recently that I found interesting is on platonic maths and complex algorithmic complexity in simple algorithms.
> the hypothesis they're working on is there are many more algorithms that life discovered over the past view billion years at higher orders via random walk and chance. We just have to pick apart these biological structures and discover the behaviors and figure out how to use them.
This is very interesting. I think there is a lot of valuable research that will come out of trying to figure out what classical computations brains, neural nets, etc. are instantiating.
How you get from computations to phenomenal experience is still not something that I have a very clear understanding of.