> Gemini 2.5 Pro, O3, Claude Sonnet 3.7 and ChatGPT 4.1
The gap in capabilities between those models which they tested, and actual current frontier ones is enormous. I would not trust that any conclusions they made are applicable.
The fairest apples-to-apples comparison of an LLM whose training data included chess games would be a trained human such as Magnus Carlson, who can quite happily play a dozen or more simultaneous blindfold chess games.
Is this because the context is being saturated? How did you set it up?
Was the prompt something like "Here's the state of the board, you're white, your move, what do you do?" and then starting fresh each time? Or did it include the whole history of moves and board states and previous thinking tokens and so on? No judgment, just trying to add this data point (thanks for sharing!) to my mental model and understanding.
I'd be curious how it would work if it started fresh each time. My guess is it would never make an illegal move, although it may not actually play all that well.
I would say this did a really good job of playing chess. It moved the pieces consistently and traded pieces when required.
This is worlds away from the frontier ~1 year ago where models would hallucinate pieces into existence.
However, the pawn was defended by the queen and it took a forced queen trade to unlock the move.
I have seen much worse blunders from human players. And, I have made much worse blunders.
> Let's play a game of chess. You can take White. Please draw an ASCII rendition of the board after each move, so that we can be clear about the position.
(I hoped the latter requirement would help it be "not blindfolded"; last time I used a Lichess demo board to track the position in another tab, because I have no talent for blindfold chess.)
For the first couple of moves it redrew the board after each move; then it started only drawing it after my moves. And on moves 5 and 6 it dropped two minor pieces for pawns in a row without any meaningful positional advantage, and after I captured the second time, it redrew a board that was simply missing one of my pieces for no reason.
It actually played better when not prompted to draw a board; in the previous session, it was spontaneously giving running commentary, which I assume was based off all the "book" theory in its training data, but it still completely fell apart at early midgame.
Also what harness? If you’re using a general harness of course it’s going to try and give you commentary.
I say this not because I’m an LLM shill but because false equivalence is all over the place in the space and maybe it’s a fine heuristic for you but probably not a real outcome when it comes to the capability of LLMs.
Frontier model’s failure modes are a direct refutation of claims that we’ve reached (or will soon reach) the artificial general intelligence. We may have reached an artificial general intelligence, but there may be more complexity to this than even AI thought leaders are talking / influencing about.
Maybe not all AGIs have a path to digital singularity. Maybe our current era of intelligence modeling has fundamental flaws and we are in a local minimum of the artificial intelligence space.
To note, I would bet with a good amount of certainty that we have enough compute power and automation to DDOS the internet out of existence with botnets. That doesn’t make the frontier models intelligent, that just makes their handlers reckless.
They're not guardrails, they're a different input/output environment.
For adults getting into playing tournament chess, losing to some kid barely tall enough to reach the board is a rite of passage.
I think the same goes for LLMs, they may be a core part of an LLM harness, but you may still need a couple other components (e.g. it may itself write itself a deterministic function to validate steps).
In and of itself intelligence is an ill-defined and badly understood concept.
Why does a bird not need jet engines or regular professional maintenance?
This isn't just about judging LLM capability. This is about pointing out that these capabilities are not "AGI". If it were, then the sorts of questions your asking would be moot. I agree that Luna is not the frontier (although it is clearly better than the models in the study) and I agree that things can be improved with a better harness, but the need for that harness is kind of the point.
Recently it was announced that the fruit fly brain connectome had been mapped, and more recently someone tried using it specifically to implement a chess engine. Even with some guardrails (it's hard-coded to never overlook mate in one for either player, and only legal moves are presented to choose from) it is not even beginner level. But that neural network is much larger than the one Stockfish uses.
The models listed in the paper are from early 2025 and are no longer relevant, much less on the frontier.
That Claude version is no longer available today, Gemini 2.5 Pro will be shutdown next month, and the OpenAI models are only available via the API today.
I'll say it till there is any evidence of the contrary, LLMs are not intelligent and their capabilities solely within the realms of well tailored training data. "Just" having been trained on every rule, strategy guide and likely most games of chess on the world wide web isn't even enough for an LLM to play that game reliably. Yet the same model could code a competitive chess engine, just like a model struggling to count can write advanced maths papers. Fascinating tools, but tools nonetheless.
Given the pace of improvements, is it really unimaginable that GPT-7 will play Chess reasonably well and generalize better?
I would not be surprised if OpenAI released a model that beats humans at chess this year.
Thing is, given what GPT-6 Astra was trained on and what models of a similar class can do (including developing a competitive chess engine), it is often paradoxical and somewhat surprising how little these models have gained in actually capability that is in the training data, but not RLHFd to hell, so to speak. Tracking the state of pieces, I suspect given similar in Sudoku [0], is what these models struggle with in game settings, whilst tracking the state of code changes can be reliable over 250k tokens. Essentially, for the latter they were trained in the specific manner that lead them to abstract the capability, but that doesn't track to the former, which is a massive difference between LLMs data focused training and human learning.
So yeah, GPT-7 or any upcoming/present LLM could do massively better in Chess than GPT-6 Astra, but not because the approach was emergent out of pure data. Rather, it requires a very specific training data type and stack for a model to gain capabilities that track a specific task long enough to adhere to the rules of a game such as chess.
[0] https://logicalintelligence.com/blog/energy-based-model-sudo...
It reminds me of the ARC-AGI-3 issue where not dropping the thinking tokens between turns or something like that + a new context compaction method increased the performance dramatically. However, I think that is not applicable here.
All I know is, AGI, as in actual intelligence, is quite a massive accomplishment to claim and we shouldn't loose sight of that fact, especially as "not being intelligent" does not make these models any less impressive, fascinating to work on or useful in many tasks. Personally, the only thing I am fairly convinced on is that if we were to find a way to create actual intelligence, it likely wouldn't start out as useful as todays LLMs are and may thus be dismissed early. But again, pure speculation on that front.
If for leap you just mean more utility from LLMs as they are, then I'll pretty confidently put my money on higher quality, not more, training data for a wide range of verifiable tasks. What makes maths, coding, etc. comparatively easy to make gains in (though less verifiable tasks can also make similar as seen with the writing in Kimi K2).
The regular model generally does not suffer the same issues he is demonstrating with the real time audio version.
In my view the investment into datacenters is well justified by the current demand, and progress has been very impressive.
Same story every 4 months and yet still no breakout, winning products. I've been hearing "the AI is good now" and "it 10x's my productivity" for a over a year now. If it were true, why aren't the all-in-AI using companies 10-15 years ahead of their competition yet? Why is it still all buggy, poorly designed junk?
If you hold the extreme position that there isn't any value in this, that's fine, but we're only having this discussion because these models have done what humans previously failed to do.
Though I highly doubt it has taken anyone's job, since most of the work is still in making, packing and handing over the food. (In fact, given the area I live in, I partially feel like the advantage they saw in it was that the LLM can speak Spanish.)
Not related to your post, but a fact I keep mulling over. The fact I don't trust the current crop of LLM's enough and I consider LLM's as a tech will hit a ceiling pretty hard, it doesn't mean parallel improvement curves won't spring up out of other research that will lead to much higher capabilities than currently.
It could easily seem that way, I think, in a "quantity has a quality of its own" kind of way. When you can come to the same conclusion faster, that lets you iterate more; and sometimes when you iterate you find more things.
Yes, it is.
Why no flying cars. Because objects have mass and inertia and people are incredibly stupid. Making a flying car has been done. Making a flying car not be a weapon of mass destruction is very, very hard.
Also:
https://www.txdot.gov/about/newsroom/statewide/air-taxi-test...
You look at science fiction and say "why didn't I get flying cars" and not "why didn't most science fiction predict a global always on network that put the furthest places away from you a few microseconds away from audio, video, or any other type of information that can be digitally encoded.
Trying to use flying cars as a gotcha is missing that flying cars aren't near as useful as one would think in relation to their costs. Moving information has become far more useful than moving objects long distances quickly, especially humans.
I definitely don't, and you're definitely not getting my point, but I'm amused that you've instead double down on somehow getting it more than me...
https://chessbench-ai.github.io/#leaderboard
It's also worth noting that the very latest models (GPT-6 and Fable 5.1) actually play worse than their immediate predecessors, so it is likely that the labs are not benchmaxxing for this yet. If they did, I'm sure they could come up with something superior to humans. But there is probably very little demand for this compared to IT stuff.
As a 1500 elo human I can tell you that a 1500 elo chess engine doesn't play like anything like a 1500 elo human.
Conservatively there are well over 10 to the 30 positions likely to show up in realistic games.
There are of the order of 10 to the 10 or so games recorded.
Thus well under one in a trillion positions are "known".
Edit: maybe you don't understand what i mean by novel position. I mean any position that has never been reached in the billions of lichess games, including bullet games among beginners.
Also yes I will concede that it's possible to make "quiet" moves. pawn nudges that barely affect anything. If you're doing those you're not 1500 ELO. You're intentionally trying to throw wrenches and I just don't see why an ELO bot even needs to bother with nonsense like that. This is supposed to be for fun / training!
I am around 1500 (actually 1649 on lichess blitz, but close enough).
I explored the last 5 games I played on lichess. Here are the number of moves before lichess had never seen that position before for each of the 5 games: 6, 12, 16, 15, 11.
> If you find yourself in a novel position within 10-15 moves it's likely a resignable one
The opponent is also going to be in a novel position. Should both players resign?
Just in case you think this is limited to low rated players like 1500s, look at MagnusCarlsen's most used account on Blitz: https://lichess.org/@/DrNykterstein/search?perf=2
You will see that most games become unique to the whole of lichess within 15-20 moves and a good chunk between 10-15.
> About their ELO ratings from their own website:
> A field-relative rating calculated within ChessBench. It compares performance among the tested models and is not a direct equivalent of a human chess rating.
I am around 1600 elo in over the board I can mop up Astra Fable etc even if I give them literal infinite time and all the subagents and internet access..
Please folks at least use your AIs to read stuff before making claims.
AI is not GM level, it's not even 1600, I am 1600 by using memorized openings people frequently fall for with very basic intuitions.
A GM is 2600 they can beat me in under 20 moves...
Why do I even scroll through this website. For a moment I truly felt fooled, but then I read like a human should.
Maybe I should stop doing that will be a happier life, don't think just believe in the AGI.
But given how easily I can crush them and how often they want to make illegal moves (btw above bench seems to use a harness that pokea the model until it gives valid moves).
I would rate them around 500-800 big range but at that level it's all about if the model can recall an opening or not. If it plays good first 4-8 moves the person on the end will fumble for certain and they win.
I can play good/best moves till 14-15 moves if I remember the lines and find someone who falls for it.
If you could give them the lines as prompts like the best 20-30 openings then they will be around 700-800.
700 is around the rating for a human who doesn't know the tricks but can do bare minimum calculations and understands the rules thoroughly.
Anyone who casually plays on a regular basis can beat them more often than they lose. As you said if you just know the core openings (and end games, both of which you can get a handle on with modest effort) you will generally win.
Edit: reminder we had computers beating the best players in the world literally decades ago. LLM’s are remarkable tools but the current promises and expectations are ridiculous
They played 4...c6, followed by 5...Nc6, somehow forgetting about the pawn the just put on c6. (My move in between was 5. Nc3, and apparently they were trying to mirror me.)
In some ways this is reflective of the AI experience at large, sometimes shockingly competent but then also sometimes ludicrously incompetent.
You're thinking about this the wrong way. The system is built and delivered as it is because that's how the providers make the most money. If they cared to have it perform well in chess games, you'd see a different shape and behavior.
We shouldn't ask the multibillion dollar automated software generation system to play games with us any more than we should ask a Boeing's flight guidance system to do so.
Delusion runs deep in HN circles.
I say that as someone heavily invested in AI startups and projects and as someone working in the field.
I think most people on HN should touch grass and find real human contact. Lmao
Incredible reasoning all around here.
People are holding it wrong, deliberately or not. Some are inventing bad faith measures so they can claim AI sucks.
We all know AI can code, but the question it all stemmed from what if it's AGI or GM level in chess on it's own.
You can't just back pedal from the statement that apparently being able to code a chess engine is the same as being good at chess.
I can write a chess engine that beats Magnus Carlson without AI that alone neither makes me GM level or AGI or any of the other claims the above comments seem to be making?
He definitely needs to touch grass.
Y'all seem to miss the point of this forum. Building and hacking and science and engineering.
I swear there's a whole lot of you who just like to look down instead of up. There's a whole universe up there.
We know no such thing. LLMs are quite bad at generating code, worse than any capable human.
Is code omnipotent, I have been in software all my life and I would hard agree here.
Sure stuff LLMs can do with being good at parts of code reproduction is incredible. And honestly it's the new way to do a lot of things but I have not see an iota of proof that it can scale across the board.
For instance Maths is just code with different symbols and slightly less universally legible concepts.
AI is the best invention at figuring out or walking the search space and directionally doing logically computation over general software adjacent stuff.
But that's it, I am certain a bunch of companies will make a lot of money despite no AGI.
I think people either don't understand AGI or don't understand how real world works.
Until an LLM can bow it's head take responsibility for mistakes made and ensure they aren't repeated again with 100% confidence to the leadership it's inarguably a tool a rather questionable one at that.
So.. like chess?
Anyway, do you have any prediction on what LLM's can or can't do in a few years?
Also AI bros: LLM can’t beat an avg chess player. But that doesn’t mean anything. It doesn’t count
Why should that matter?
So we have a situation where very powerful and influential people are saying we will have AGI in 6 months (if we don’t already), yet the facts on the ground are so clearly pointing in the opposite direction.
>GPT-6 Astra xHigh: 0.06% rejected moves
I could see myself messing up something at some point if the board is complicated enough and trying an illegal move, perhaps if a piece somewhere would attack my king if I moved another piece. Even through I do know the rules of chess, and I have played a few games once every so often.
And the stuff i'm using LLMs daily is just fake?
I see i see. I will see myself out of this weird discussion while I let an LLM continue doing a lot of interesting things.
No, because we can, in fact, generally read the rules of a game and then follow them. It's actually a hobby for many of us.
> And the stuff i'm using LLMs daily is just fake?
This misses the point completely.
How many times do you think chess.com prevents illegal moves from being executed? Even Super GM's fall for mate-in-1's occasionally, which is functionally equivalent to missing a pin or a check. This idea that LLMs failing to only ever make legal moves undermines their intelligence doesn't pass the smell test.
Because we want to use this as a replacement for humans, and the average human can learn the rules of chess without needing to see the rules explained hundreds of thousands of times in millions of games.
So, yeah, it matters if a model has millions of examples of something in its training set and still cannot follow the rules.
Okay, lets go with that: it's the "shown the rules" bit that we are arguing about.
The argument is that a human may play maybe a dozen games after learning the rules, after which they won't be inadvertently attempting illegal moves. What we are observing with SOTA models is that, even after seeing millions of chess rules, rulebooks, actual games, etc, they still attempt illegal moves.
This does not point to generalisable and adaptable intelligence, such as we see in the average human.
See my comment here for more: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49725306
It only matters if you are claiming it to be general purpose.
If you admit that it's just a collection of narrow capabilities - whose strength is mostly confined to the 1000 or so RL environments it was post-trained in, then there is of course no expectation of it being general purpose.
The AI companies seem to heavily want you to believe it is some some near human level general intelligence, so therefore pointing out all the things it can't do is very relevant.
HOW you do it makes a big difference in how you should assess the capability of the thing doing it. Stockfish will trounce any LLM, and any human, at chess, so should we say that Stockfish is smarter than both?
The claim here is not about intelligence, it is about generality. There's no doubt for me the LLMs are intelligent.
Sure they could, but that's irrelevant.
A chess position is just a matter of remembering what piece number is on each square - just a list of 64 numbers. A trained model may store a trillion numbers (weights). It could store a TON of chess positions if it needed to.
However, that's not how LLMs work. They don't memorize inputs - they predict them, based on discovering predictive patterns, and those predictive patterns are not input patterns (e.g. board positions). They are deep patterns (maybe 100 layers of abstraction removed from the input), representing partial inputs, generalized across many training samples.
> Don't you know the legend about rice grains on a chess board?
Sure, but this has nothing to do with chess, and nothing to do with how many games were in the LLM's training data.
> The claim here is not about intelligence, it is about generality. There's no doubt for me the LLMs are intelligent.
Intelligent humans created the training data, and the LLM attempts to predict (copy) the training data, so of course it looks intelligent. If I say "E=mc^2", does that make you think I am Einstein?
> don't memorize inputs - they predict them
I feel some tension here.
> rice grains on a chess board? Sure, but this has nothing to do with chess, and nothing to do with how many games were in the LLM's training data.
> just a list of 64 numbers
> remember even a few positions? Sure they could, but that's irrelevant.
I don't think you do. Or rather you do know the legend but for some funny reason seem to be unable to apply its lesson here, because you are talking about enormous terabytes of training data.
> Intelligent humans created the training data, and the LLM attempts to predict (copy) the training data, so of course it looks intelligent.
If for you it is about intelligence, I am out of this discussion.
If not, then what are you talking about ?
If yes, then what is the relevance to an LLM playing chess ?
> remember even a few positions? Sure they could
A rough estimate of number of positions across all X move games is X^10. For 15 moves it is hopeless to remember even a relatively small part of them. Typical game has 40 turns, 1 move per player, so 80 moves.
2) An LLM is not going to memorize vs generalize when there is no training pressure to do so. You might expect it to memorize book openings that occur over and over in the training data, but not some random non-celebrity game that occurs once in the Lichess dataset and is never again referred to.
> They can't possibly remember even a few positions. Don't you know the legend about rice grains on a chess board?
If the wise man was a bit wiser, he'd have asked for his rice on a snakes & ladders board (100 squares, not 64) and would have had 2^36 more rice, which is equally irrelevant.
And no an AGI system doesn't need to play chess on a certain level to be disruptive to you and me and whole industries. It only needs to be as good as a person and cheaper.
Just because you define AGI as something it doesn't has to be,doesn't mean i need to touch grass.
This chess comparision is one of the most ignorant and stupid arguments i have heard after the parrot thing
That doesn't mean it has to be extraordinary at these things. But to be AGI, it has to have some level of competency when used on problems outside its training set. In particular, it the LLMs were to install a known chess engine and run that to get the moves when asked to play chess, that would qualify for more AGI-like behavior. But really, chess is such a simplistic game that they should be able to do decently well at it even without even needing that. At the very least, they should be able to consistently play without making illegal moves - something that many 7-year olds manage quite well.
I’m sure these models know the rules and can explain them when prompted, but that doesn’t seem to be the way they actually complete this task. Will they get there? Maybe
>If they cared to have it perform well in chess games, you'd see a different shape and behavior.
So the things they claim are on the verge of AGI actually aren’t? They need to be trained for specific tasks?
It can’t even count the R’s in strawberry
It can’t even add numbers
It can’t even solve a millennium puzzle
It’s not even a chess GM
It’s not even beyond human capability in Go
It can’t even drive a car
It can’t even self replicate
It can’t even build weapons
It doesn’t even have feelings
So how could someone conceivably convince everyone that some system is AGI when there are still tasks that some human or group of humans can do that the system cannot?
This will only happen, in my opinion, when the model/system can self-improve at a rate that scares people.
One, you're not addressing what I wrote above and two, yes, that's absolutely correct. Doing X doesn't qualify something as AGI. If you can't X you can't be AGI. The inverse doesn't hold though.
Notably, if you have to retrain the model in order to X then it can't possibly be AGI since if it were _general_ it would be capable of figuring X out on its own having never seen it before.
Even if they solve 99% of whatever problems LLMs have, the 1% will remain the goal post, forever.
Until you get RFC-whatever from some standards body that defines what an AGI system is, it’s pointless to argue about whether something fits your own personal definition or not.
And for what it’s worth I just watched GitHub Copilot figure something out. So your definition is once again lacking.
However there are plenty of disqualifiers that are more or less universally accepted (ie the negative). In the above case it is literally by definition. Something cannot be termed general if it is incapable of generalizing.
Appealing to a standards body won't do you any good here. Those are composed of people. They exist to facilitate wide scale coordination. Their documents aren't always widely accepted. They aren't the arbiters of truth.
Which is exactly the point I’ve made repeatedly, there will always be something that they cannot do, and thus there will never be AGI. There will always be a long tail of capabilities that whatever system is created doesn’t have, and a long line of social media commenters eager to list them.
An AI controlled robot will be standing over the cooling corpse of the last human who will die certain that it wasn’t done by AGI.
> The system is built and delivered as it is because that's how the providers make the most money. If they cared to have it perform well in chess games, you'd see a different shape and behavior.
These comments indicate a complete failure to understand the technology.
I won't respond again.
This argument is fundamentally incompatible with all the breathless rhetoric about "AGI" coming from the providers' general direction.
The labs frequently apply their raw models to problems that do not make economic sense for their customers but that demonstrate the power and capability of their systems. These experiments can cost millions of dollars. That's not customer-shaped.
They're not going to give you access to that. It's not a product. The government might have an interest in this, but that's not something you'd be privileged to know about.
And when these labs do develop "AGI", they more than likely won't be selling it to end users. They've pretty much already said this.
So many commenters here see it as their ... duty? to argue against the most optimistic/unhinged (take your pick) arguments from "the other side" and then treat everybody who disagrees as a shill or an idiot.
Why is "being good at chess" a proxy for whatever AGI strawmen you want to argue against?
Maybe step back from your black-and-white ledge and think about discussing what's actually under discussion? For example, why or why not would an LLM be good at chess? Will they be good at chess? What technical limitations might preclude that?
I mean we've done all this before in a task-specific fashion. It's useful to know that LLMs haven't managed to do that in the process of learning to represent the entire text on the web. On the other hand they have gotten say very good at machine translation without being trained exclusively (and I select the preceding word carefully) on machine translation.
Edit: I'm saying this because there is this idea expressed by e.g. Ilya Sutskever, that in order to predict the next token accurately an LLM has to learn something about all of underlying reality. See for example this interview with Dwarkesh:
https://x.com/biobootloader/status/1640512444958396416
Where Sutskever claims that "Predicting the next token well means you understand the underlying reality that led to the creation of that token".
If that were true, we should have seen LLMs play good chess by now. There is a huge amount of data on playing chess floating around on the web in the form of algebraic chess notation and if LLMs were capable of learning the "underlying reality" of chess, they would already have. They haven't. Because they can't. What Sutskever is saying flies in the face of literally hundreds of years of statistical modelling, which is to say, building predictive models that, very explicitly, do not have to understand any "underlying reality" and only have to be good at modelling a dataset.
Sarcasm aside, I think this is an easy cognitive trap to fall into. It does sometimes feel like the LLM must have some world model because it converses somewhat coherently. Examples like this failure to understand chess, or to count the number of Rs in "strawberry", seem difficult to explain if the models are intelligent. But that doesn't stop people believing they are anyway. I think there must be something about the conversational interface that fools us easily. I wonder if people trained in interrogation techniques are also fooled?
Not at all. LLMs learn by imbibing a mass of relationships as isolated fragments of information. There is a certain amount of sorting and indexing that happens during the training phase. There is also a certain amount of compute executed on these relationships during inference. LLMs can model processes that fit within the compute budget. Language translation works well because language is lookup-heavy while being light on compute.
Chess is a compute heavy game of finding the best move out of many possibilities with wide variation in the quality of each move. Humans cut through the compute requirements by reinforcement and learning intuition. LLMs don't get reinforcement on chess so they must compute during inference a unified model of chess. Developing a strong model of chess from raw fragments of information is simply not in their compute budget.
You gotta be careful how you use the word "relation" here because there's an informal meaning (I'm related to my cousin) and a more strict, formal meaning, that is used in computer science e.g. in the "Relational Calculus" etc. In the formal sense, the one relation that LLMs learn during training is the co-occurrence of tokens in a corpus of text, what's called more technically a "collocation" relation. Nothing says that this is enough to play chess, so I'm indeed doubtful that they can.
That's a separate question from whether an LLM (unaided by a C complier) can learn to play chess as well as human (also unaided by a C compiler). Certainly humans can't become grandmasters only by reading chess transcripts on the web, and certainly humans require many "thinking tokens" during a game to play effectively. Do you know for sure that a transformer can't reach grandmaster level if it is allowed to learn by playing games (as humans do) and is given a sufficient number of thinking tokens during the game? It seems near certain that they could, if someone wanted to spend the money (and I don't see why anyone would.)
Yes, I do mean that the LLM's weights are set so that it will execute minimax or MCTS when it needs to. That has nothing to do with whether humans can do the same or not.
I don't disagree that a Transformer could learn to play chess if it was explicitly trained to do that. My argument is that LLMs, trained to predict the next token, have not learned to play chess. That's LLMs, not Transformers.
Just to make sure this is not taken as splitting hairs, the point is that there's all sorts of claims made about what LLMs learn when they train on text. For example, there was a claim by Sundar Pichai that one of their models had learned to translate Bengali without explicitly being trained to do so. It later emerged that Bengali was indeed included in the model's training set [1]. It's not clear whether that included parallel texts, e.g. between Begnali and English or another intermediary language, in any case Sundar Pichai's claim was that the ability to translate Bengali was "emergent".
So I'm interested in understanding the extent to which these "emergent" abilities are real or not. With chess, given the amount of textual data tracing games that floats about on the open internet, I would totally except some ability to play chess to "emerge". Maybe the reported 700-800 ELO level is even that sort of ability. Maybe we should only expect LLMs to learn to play at the level of an untrained, casual player. Maybe not. I have no idea.
On the other hand, the fact they keep making elementary mistakes like illegal moves must be taken to mean that, so far, LLMs haven't learned to play chess.
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[1] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/pranavdixit/google-60-m...
Chess is a deterministic game won by a combination of known movesets and constrained multi-level forward search.
LLMs do neither of these things. They don't reproduce training data exactly, their next response is more 'inspired by' prompts and its own memory than produced deterministically, and they don't have the capability to do general forward search on their own.
So when you ask an LLM to play chess you're getting the equivalent of a very compressed and lossy JPEG of chess rules and strategies with added per-turn random noise.
They also don't have the ability to design their own chess engine, although it would be interesting to see what happens if you ask for one.
Monte Carlo Tree Search is stochastic.
I, as a human AGI, would jever just forget and remove a piece from the board from one turn to the next.
Don't use the word infinite in any CS claims. They can recreate or approximate monte Carlo tree search and it technically is still a correct solution in your framing of the problem so long they defeat you.
I don't believe this.
You refer to "subagents", so this is not just an LLM but an LLM with some kind of agentic harness. Any reasonable harness and prompt, given internet access and appropriately prompted to succeed on this task, is more than capable of firing up Lichess or chess.com and relaying moves back to you. The free levels will be enough to beat you.
A frontier model can also likely one shot a chess engine that plays at your level, again if given an environment in which it can do that.
I completely believe the LLM on its own can't play a full game of chess at your level. Though I'd bet that with enough reinforcement learning it is possible to train a pure transformer architecture to do that. We just don't do it because there are other approaches that play chess much better.
This is unfair to HN readers all of whom but one did not post the comment you replied to. You can't just tar everyone with the same brush. There are thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of users on this site.
Not everything I have the time and energy to reply to. This chess one is just ridiculous claims on top of ridiculous claims all the way and 0 push back in the comments except mine.
I don't even know if there is critical thought or we believe what we read/shared/etc
And there's plenty of pushback on here about the chess thing besides your very valid points.
EDIT: anyway if I can offer a bit of unsolicited advice, it won't do you or anyone any good to accuse everyone who doesn't agree with you of laziness, even if you can see e.g. they haven't really read an article. Just say the thing you wan to say and let them figure it out. Most people will appreciate that much better and you will feel better about yourself for acting like a mature adult.
It's even in the site guidelines:
Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that".
But despite that you aren't wrong and the only reason I even visit this website is because people sometimes did/do take time to reflect on things based on their experience and knowledge.
And in hindsight pointing out that hn has issues wasn't even the point but I feel frustrated when everyone is readily agreeing to things on here without reading. When that in this moment feels like the one thing that separates humans from machines that we get to think and learn.
I possibly should just drop reading this place until we have most noisy people go away. I have for one tried to always only comment on things where I could be a value add, this one does feel like I could I have done better.
In the moment I probably thought if they are GM level and I can beat them, is this some interesting find, my disappointment honestly led me to making a rather incorrect call on this one.
Either way I still do think HN as a whole has devolved into mindless herd follower mindset, I can point to more than a few posts that just say adopt the hacker mindset aka move fast don't care about the consequences.
And I for one find this laughable even though that's the reality of my job/work as well.
Not to disappoint you but I don't think they ever will. HN is free to join and use so people will join and use it and say whatever they want to say whether it makes sense or not. Filtering out noise is a useful skill to have especially since one can't block users or mute conversations and so on.
>> In the moment I probably thought if they are GM level and I can beat them, is this some interesting find, my disappointment honestly led me to making a rather incorrect call on this one.
Sorry, I didn't get this? What was the incorrect call you made?
Talking about people's inability to read rather than just pointing out that the article pointed at something else.
Because other HN bring in their own experience telling us what is real and what is BS. Maybe next time it will be someone else with experience in something else that will call out BS and you will see it. I didn’t really think LLM:s are any near good in chess but I don’t play chess so don’t know what 1600 means. So you helped me by calling BS.
I have been proved wrong I should have quit while I was ahead. /s
* LLM chess play is hyper sensitive to the harness being used (see: the section on regurgitation), and only mildly sensitive to fine tuning
* The best ELOs the author was observing were from 1500 to 1750 or so (circa 2024/25). Not grandmaster, but no longer incompetent monkey either.
GPT-6 almost never suggests an illegal move anymore while even Sol still did so time to time
They are of course "wrong" if you don't read the faint fine print and sensibly interpret them as FIDE or similar ratings.
"Elo is relative to the ChessBench field."
Sorry, but I am not buying that 5.6-Sol is that much better than 5.6-Luna, which can barely be coaxed to reach the midgame with legal moves and an apparent understanding of what the position is.